This just ticks me off video

[zoomie]

To everyone who thinks this is wrong:

Do you also gripe and moan about most Texas deer hunting? Put up a timed feeder, a blind, and a high game fence, and wait for them to come eat at 5pm? If you hate them both, ok. If you somehow rationalize that and criticize this, what's the difference?

[hogdogs]

Zoomie, Great question! I will answer it in full honesty...
I do not feel the use of any "placed" bait is "fair chase". I barely accept food plots as fair chase but since hunting in a profit earning field is than plots are fair too I reckon. I personally do not use plots for "game" hunting. I have and will put out soured corn to have a starting point for hogs as they travel alot and I am putting forth a bit of cash to get to the farmers place with my always hungry dogs to perform a free service.
If a fella is taking me up on the offer to try hog hunting the swamps, the least I can do is try to insure the hogs will be on the property. It isn't like they will be hovering over the corn but possibly nearby. Other than that, picking a squirrel off a bird feeder for the snake to eat is as far as I go...
I am not a sport hunter. I am a meat hunter and a nuisance animal remover.
Brent

[Tuzo]

This bear "hunt" is really live target practice.

Several years ago Rush Limbaugh described a duck hunt somewhere in the coastal northeast, maybe Delaware or Maryland. The first day he sat in a blind with friends and a guide, complained about the weather, and shot at several ducks with zero luck. Following day he once again sat in a blind and had phenomenal luck with ducks flying by only a few yards away. That day the guide was releasing captive bred ducks from a nearby cage. Is that considered hunting? Rush Limbaugh thought so but it was really skeet shooting with live clays. Target practice.

A great deal of my professional work was done in parts of Texas. There, many ranches had converted to exotic hunting areas. 10' fence around the ranch, a guide in a safari suit and driving a Range Rover, clients with more money than hunting skill, and exotic game driven into a fenced corner consituted the "hunt." More target practice.

[flippycat]

zoomie, my biggest gripe about the whole video and it was my opening line, the ability of that "hunter" at the end to be such a horrible shot he had to shoot it 6 times. Not in the course of a minute, but over the long period it took him to bring his a$$ down from the stand to get close enough to make a vital shot.

me-
I feel the same way about food baiting any game animal in. If you do not have the skills to track a run, look for a rub or know where they naturally feed and know where to put your stand then you have no business in the woods.

I should of clarified my statement above to include "I feel the same way about food baiting any game animal in where the ability to hunt in a natural environment is possible".

I agree some situations call for the lure of an animal. The rattle, the scent, the call. I trapped for roughly 6 years, I understand the need to bait in certain circumstances.

But as stated by hogdogs I believe, the use of the barrels in this video to measure the size of a good kill do nothing to honor the term hunting. It further shows that they do not possess the skills to be in the woods.

I will quote loosely from the video "if it is over the second rib of the barrel it is a good kill"

So not only was one a horrible shot, it seemed none of them knew enough about what they were doing and needed the actual lure to gauge their size.

[OLNfan]

I dont like the style, AND I dont use it. In B.C. CANADA its illegal. I Can go out and get a black bear in less than 6 hrs with out baiting. AND the thought of baiting has never crossed my mind. I dont know who you think you are but I dont see culture/tradition in a 50 gal drum filld with fish but Im glad you approve of a simple shoot (its not a hunt). I could find out the number of these kids parents if you want to go hunting with these city slickers Art Eatmam? I would have to wonder about your hunting experience if you guys thought this was legitimit.

[Hirlau]

OLNFAN,
I see your point( I'm with you) and I'm not a hunter, since age 20.
We are on the losing side of this thread, arguing with Art only brings down his wrath(and his supporters) on other thread issues. Lets let this thread die.

Live, to discuss another day.

[taylorce1]

I thought long and hard about posting on this subject. Hunting over bait from a stand isn't the method I'd prefer, but I've done it pig hunting. So after my rant let the flames begin.

These were all youth hunters who didn't know how to judge a good animal so I think he was using the barrel for their benefit. That was what I thought when I heard the guide say "If it is over the second rib on the barrel it is a good bear." Again a rough translation of what I heard and saw.

The last one was not a pretty kill, but at least the he got him down with the first shot. Nerves probably helped to botch the next series of shots until he walked up and gave it the finishing one. I've botched a few shots hunting as well, but luckily have never lost an animal.

I didn’t like stand hunting as well over bait, but then I realized I do the same thing. I hunt corn, milo, wheat, alfalfa fields, and meadows for deer and elk. How is that any different if I set up overlooking one of these spots than the guy who sets up bait, feeders, salt licks, or food plots? I’d like to think I only hunt spot and stalk but that isn’t the case, a lot of the time I find a good spot to sit and wait and hope something crosses my path that I find worth shooting.

Nor is what they are doing any different than a guy setting up a blind over a water hole waiting for pronghorn, or for that matter African game. Seeing that many animals at least will/can teach patience and the ability to judge a quality animal. This kind of hunting allows for people hunting with disabilities as well who normally couldn’t do spot and stalk.

More often than not my hunting experience has been more about my shooting than my stalking skill. I’ve driven out to a pasture where I was going to hunt pronghorn, as soon as I got out of my truck a bedded doe got up 150 yards away. I pulled out my rifle and shot her, filled my doe tag. No hunting skill involved just got lucky that she hung around to see what I was doing. I then drove my pickup up to her to field dress and load to go home.

Hunting bear in AK, I lost a bear during a long stalk. Gave up and was heading back to the boat. Just walking across an open tidal flat, we got within 200 yards of a bear before we realized it was even a bear. I just sat down, put my rifle on the sticks and shot my bear. No skill there in fact we were about as obvious as a fart in church walking back to the boat, no cover in any direction except where the bear was at.

Shot one of my largest mule deer going to help my dad fix his hay baler. Was driving down the road and spotted him crossing an open field. Parked the truck, grabbed my rifle and orange, ran about a hundred yards sat down with my sticks and shot. Missed completely but the deer let me take another and that time I got him. Again no skill involved in that hunt, plus some terrible shooting on my part.

All in all is hunting bear over bait the style of hunting I like to do? No, but I’m not going to say it isn’t hunting as long as the practice is legal. Different regions have different hunting practices, just because it isn’t common practice where I live doesn’t make it unethical. Remember there are enough people who hate that any hunting happens, why add fuel to the cause to ban hunting all together. Just like we try and fight any weapons ban that comes down the pipe so should do the same to anything that takes away our hunting privileges. Hunting really is all about the experience, and hopefully some of those kids learned some sort of lesson and will advocate our cause in the future.

FLAME ON!

[OLNfan]

............

[hogdogs]

I am with Art on this... I personally don't care for hunting over bait and this includes bottled scents. But if someone else chooses to I don't care. If they go peein' down my leg tellin' me it is rain about a hunt and it is akin to waiting for a bear to stick his head in a barrel of fish guts and baby diapers, I hope they don't take offense when I go laughin' my butt off about the hunt...
Brent

[taylorce1]

OLNfan, you really missed the point I was trying to make. The hunting while you might find it distasteful was perfectly legal where those kids were hunting. Hunting bear with bait or running them with dogs isn't legal where I live either doesn't mean I'm going to condemn the people who hunt in Regions where it is.

You are basicly pulling the classic "Jim Zumbo" move by your blanket statements.

[Scorch]

At the signing of the Declaration of Independence, Benjamin Franklin supposedly said "If we don't hang together, we shall surely all hang separately", meaning that if the enemies of the cause could get them fighting amongst themselves, they could easily defeat them all.

We saw this out west here, where the antis got a ban on leg-hold traps passed, a ban on hunting mountain lions with dogs passed, a ban on hunting bear with dogs passed, and damn near got a ban on 50-caliber rifles for hunting (until the black powder guys figured out that included them). So, like Art said, if you don't like it, don't do it. But it's legal, so don't go getting too self-righteous and get folks all worked up over nothing, or the antis are going to try to ban it, and eventually they will try to ban your favorite hunting, too! Remember, what we like to call hunting varies from one area to the next, and if the antis had their way you would only get to see meat in a museum.

[OLNfan]

Im done rambling, I could continue and sure would love to but Ill hold back.

[L_Killkenny]

I didn't see the vid in question and I swore I'd never get in on another discussion about ethics........oh damn!

What a bunch of high'n'mighty pansy's we have here. I could spend all day complaining about different hunting methods. Maybe your gun should be illegal? Maybe you shouldn't be able to use a compound bow? Maybe you bird hunters should get out and find your own damn birds, etc, etc. Who makes some of you the lord high authority on hunting ethics? If it's legal go for it. If you don't like it it, too bad.

It also appears that the shooting wasn't up to snuff on the vid. Gee, I wish I could say I've never made a bad shot. Wish I could be like some of you others:barf: and never make bad shots...

Get over yourselves...

[hogdogs]

LKK, I have to agree to the high and mighty approach. I just don't do what I don't agree with and mind my own bidness in life... The Lord and I are the only ones who know what length I would go to if I was hungry enuff
Brent

[Daryl]

Ethics in hunting is always a touchy subject.

Like LKK said, if we start trying to dictate these things, soon more laws will be passed, and then where does it end?

With bear baiting, or should baiting any and all animals be prohibited. What constitutes a bait? A placed bait, field of grain, a salt lick, or a water hole? These things are already being banned in some places, and we need the support of those hunters

Then what about those who disagree with using dogs? The anti's already want to ban it, and have in some states. Where does it stop?

What about how far we shoot? Some folks believe that long shots are unethical; should we ban shots over 200 yards? How? By limiting flat shooting cartridges?

Ethics are a good thing. Self imposed limitations that go above and beyond the law, but we can't start trying to dictate our own self interests and beliefs onto others.

Why? Because that will only end when all hunting is banned. That's what the anti's want, and they'll divide us up and defeat us any way they can.

Ethics are good; impose them on yourself as you feel appropriate, but leave others alone on the subject.

Daryl

[cracker31]

I just went to the store and bought a case of granola bars for all of you guys who think this is just plain wrong. I don't hunt bears (don't see the need here in FL) and don't see why anyone would, but doing it however you want to as long as it is legal doesn't bother me. I didn't see the video but it is probably about like watching them shoot elephants on Versus, it just doesn't feel right.

I used to know an old man who went into the Canadian bush every year for two weeks to hunt bears. He did it off of the ground with a long bow but he did it over bait that he put out. He was a hunter, of this there is no doubt in my mind, but was he more of a hunter because he did it where the bear could eat him? No, it is because he cared about what he was doing and the animal he was going to harvest.

I don't like the little rich boys who think hunting like this is real hunting any more than the rest of you do, but it is their right and if they can afford it leave them alone. They will never enjoy hunting the way that we do but that is there loss. They will also never put in the work to get the trophies (experiences and memories) that we do. Let them kill but know that we are the true hunters.

[12GaugeShuggoth]

Elkman, glad to see (at least from the looks of it) you saw I wasn't actually trying to be confrontational, but was actually supplementing your own post. Interesting to see how much attention this thread has gained, morals and ethics will probably always be a hot topic among hunters.

Daryl's last post pretty much sums it up IMO. I've learned that for the most part, I'm best suited to just keep my personal opinions about ethics to myself and some close friends. Hunting, in the broad sense, is one of those things that I couldn't live without; fighting amongst ourselves can only bring problems.

[flippycat]

You know what is funny about this thread...the insults and innuendos thrown to the people who disagree with the tactics used. Just as it is the peoples right to disagree with the tactics, you have all stood the ground we are wrong in voicing opinions about it and we should "mind our own opinions". What gives the defenders the voice that is right on the subject and the only one allowed? Why do those who disagree with it need to eat granola and lower our heads to shuffle past the great white "hunters".

like I said before in my posts,I do not agree with it, and even admitted to doing it on occasion via a rattle, scent. Even trapped, which is almost all about baiting.

I found what was in that vid to be low skill set, period.

And to address the shooting issue, sorry guys, have not botched a shot before on the hunt with a firearm! Yep how craptaculure of me to be a good shot and know when I can take it ~insert come roll eyes here~

Now, a bow ..yup I have botched a shot or two, some branch I did not see and a grazing a sapling which resulted in an a$$ shot.

[Art Eatman]

I've always been a walking hunter. I just don't like sitting in a blind. That's why I don't hunt the thick brush country of south Texas. Since you can't really walk it or sneaky-snake through all that cactus and mesquite, either sitting in a blind or riding in a high seat in the back of a pickup is darned near all there is.

Walking? Go to where Bambi is likely to be laid up, snoozing. Kick him out of bed, look him over, and shoot him. That's if you're any good on a running buck.

Sneaky-snaking is fun. Try to find Bambi before he finds you. Not easy, but soul-satisfying.

But some of it is a know-how thing. I grew up hunting. I learned how to walk very quietly darned near seventy years ago. Some guy who spends his life at a desk? Lives in town? Or, his kids? They gotta start somewhere, and I guess a blind is about as good a start as any. Let them get used to seeing critters. Learn how to sit still and not fidget. Some folks are good at that.

So all of that is why I don't get all exercised and harumphy when it's different strokes for different folks. I just might not know as much about the situation as I ought to, maybe.

As far as the number of shots, I know adrenalin makes folks do weird. I watched an experienced hunter crank through a mag's worth of cartridges in his bolt action, one time. Just one problem: He never pulled trigger. Sure worked that bolt quick, though.

Kids? Hey, life is a learning curve, and I haven't quit, yet.

[roy reali]

You set up at the edge of an alfalfa field. There are dozens of deer everyday grazing on that succulent plant. It is opening morning and a deer is coming into range. He nibbles as he approaches. A few seconds later, bang, you got your animal.

Were you hunting over bait?

[Shorthair]

Ok, this is how we do things where I hunt. I own 135 acres in northern Michigan. 95% of the county is private land, in holdings from 5 to a few hundred acres. We respect property rights, most of us do anyway, rather then be called trespassers.
So I rely on the habitat to draw deer, there are places on the land that I do not go and forbid others from doing so. 135 acres isn't a lot of land, I can cover it several times in one day if I wanted to, but all that trampling around is gonna spook the deer off the property, on to the neighbor's land. Since we are all boxed in pretty much, during rifle season we all sit in our blinds on opening morning and hope that a nice buck presents himself. We call it "hunting", but in reality its an uncontrolled harvest. I don't want that buck spooked by chasing him through my cedar swamp, I want his head down on breakfast or concentrating on a hot doe. This make my shot more sure, and that makes for a cleaner kill.
I manage the entire piece of land for whitetail, that includes cover, water and food. I manage the land to attract does. Bucks take up residence as well but the does maintain a predictable range from year to year, and opening day is during the rut. There is a lot of natural browse and I also plant food plots, clover, alfalfa, rye, wheat, trefoil, buckwheat, etc, in 1/2 - 3 acre plots. The season runs from Oct 1 (start of bow) through Jan 1. Since opening day in Michigan is always on November 15, the weather can be from single digits to well above freezing, often moving that much between 6 am and noon. Our blinds are typically nothing more fancy than four walls and a roof, with windows for shooting out of. This make spending the day out in sub-freezing temps more tolerable. It also allows the deer a chance to move naturally through the habitat, they come to us. This is how we do it here, its the best option available given the habitat and population.
I work hard on the land, and I cherish the time I can spend out on it not working it. I have bird dogs and I put a ton of time navigating my way around the wildest public lands Michigan has to offer when I bird hunt, but I'm not gonna fight the crowds and hunt public land in Michigan during rifle season, not when I can fill my freezer every opening day from my own land.
I'm healthy enough to spot and stalk but with the limited range there's just no point in it. And don't tell me that I have to spend my bow season crawling around like Sitting Bull instead of perched in a tree in my Beechwoods or in a pine overlooking one of my apple trees. None of the great white hunters out there know best what I should do with my land, my time and my money. As Art said, sometime we just don't know enough about the situation to make moral condemnations of perfectly legal activities. We hunt, we should all support hunting as long as the methods are legal and appropriate. Some of us just do it differently.