Reforming .30-06 to .25-06 resulting in a "donut" at the neck

[SShooterZ]

Hey everyone...

Running into a problem with some .30-06 brass I'm trying to reform into .25-06.

I've tried it going from a .270 die set first and then a .25-06 and I've gone straight to .25-06. No matter which route, I get a "donut" at the base of the neck.

I've read a few posts on here and other forums where it doesn't seem other people are running into this problem. Any suggestions?

FWIW, I'm using FL RCBS dies.

Thanks!

Bob

[nate45]

I've never run into that. Do you have a picture of what it looks like? Will it chamber in your rifle? If you can seat a bullet and chamber the round, maybe a mild load and fire forming might iron the wrinkles out.

[dahermit]

If you are having trouble going directly from 30-06 to 25-06, you may want to go from 30-06 to .270 as an intermediate step. From 30 to .25 might be too big of a step. Have you researched case forming? The correct process may have utilized forming dies not standard FL dies to do the forming.

I would avoid forming 25-06 cases in the first place because 25-06 cases are readily available. However, if there is a compelling reason for forming cases, like you want to end up with a thicker neck with which to have a tighter fit between the case neck and corresponding diameter of the chamber (necking down would result in very thick case necks that should then be neck-turned).

If the reason is for a better case neck fit, you should consult the references on cartridge conversions for the exact instructions.

Addendum: Opps. I see that you did try .270.

[Doug Bowser]

I reform .30-06 to .270 WCF all the time. There may be a problem with some .30-06 when sized down to .25-06. Be sure to check the loaded neck diameter. If it is over maximum, you could blow your rifle up

Doug Bowser

[sindiesel666]

Are you annealing before forming??

Enough lubricant used??

any photos of the cases and this infamous donut??

[Unclenick]

I assume you are referring to the dreaded donut on the inside of the neck where it meets the shoulder? This is not uncommon and happens after just resizing enough times. It is what inside neck reamers were made to correct. If you mean some other malformation, a picture would be helpful.

[Inspector3711]

oncefiredbrass.com has .25-06 brass for half of what new brass costs. I had bad luck with 30-06 and 270 brass sticking in my .25-06 dies and decided to buy from oncefiredbrass. All is good now! Sometimes they don't have any in stock there but if you keep checking they'll get some in.

[WCW]

I hope I understand what you are seeing on your cases. I’ve ran into this lots of times, and it’s like the die is making a very small secondary shoulder to properly headspace on. The cases fire form perfectly, and I am assuming here that they do chamber in your rifle properly. I also generally don’t use 30-06 cases to form 25-06 as they come out just a little bit short in the neck, and you have to watch for case growth that isn’t always obvious because of that. It also makes trimming a PITA, as you have to do a lot of trimmer resetting. Just go with new 25-06 cases. They last for many many reloads.

[SShooterZ]

WCW hit it right on the head. Sorry if I may have been using the wrong terminology. If I can find my digital camera I'll take some pics.

Also, lubing yes, annealing, no. It is necessary or just preferred?

Thanks again to everyone for their help and advice.

[TATER]

I’m just trying to cover all the bases here, It’s Not my intention to offend.
Are you lubing the inside of the neck too?
You are flowing a lot of brass from .30 to .25, That will becomes apparent come trim time.
And you may still have to turn them down as they maybe too thick. I have used 270win many
times with no problems. (other than keeping them segregated from the real .270 brass)
I use a nylon bore type brush to vigorously clean and lube the inside of the neck. This helps
to ease a lot of friction. If your brass is “once” fired you will be ok with not annealing it
First. But, I would as practice anneal it after forming to relieve stress and not have the
necks split on you after firing them.
BE SAFE.
Again, going from 30 to 25, measure those neck walls as I think they will be too thick.
They are more than likely going to need turning.

HTH
Tater

[wncchester]

"Also, lubing yes, annealing, no. It is necessary or just preferred?"

Annealing reformed brass, like many other specific loading options, is not necessary at all. But, IMHO, it is highly desireable to make your new cases last longer. If you don't, you will just get split necks sooner.

[F. Guffey]

SSshooterZ, some of the cases I form are not meant to be loaded, for example, I formed 20 cases that were to be used for checking a chamber, I used 25/06 cases necked down with a 243 forming die with the shell holder and die gap adjusted to different lengths (6mm Remington) then the cases were neck sized down to 22, the chamver was a 22/6MM Remington/Improved shoulder, I wasted my time but had to try and help, seems they were forming brass with an 80% failure rate meaning 80 cases split out of 100 split, they did not have a clue as how to use the cases, BUT, those cases had a DO-NUT inside the neck at the neck/shoulder fold. In the perfect world, brass will flow in a predictable manner as when manufactures formed brass in the old days, 300 H&H, 30/40 Krag, 303 British and the 30/06, the shoulder angle on the 30/06 shoulder is 17 degree 30', when making a turn, the inside travels about as far as the outside but when the angle of the shoulder increases, and nothing in the case neck to force the brass on the inside to make the turn, it wads up and forms the do-nut, and one more thing to consider, we assume the brass is locked together and held together with something like gorilla grip, it is possible for a case to lock on to the chamber when fired on the outside to the chamber and flow (inside of case slip past the outside) and cause the do-nut to form while being fired, after all, there is nothing inside the case holding the brass in place and the brass could be flowing with the hot high pressure metal cutting brass as it leaves the case.

I would not recommend leaving the DO-NUT in the neck at the fold, the DO-NUT represents a restriction to flow.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

hot high pressure metal cutting 'GAS' as it leaves the case.

F. Guffey

[El Paso Joe]

When I have problems like yours, annealing is usually the next right thing. I shoot 256 Win Mag with cases made from 357 mag brass. It was a disaster until I annealed first.

[SShooterZ]

Looks like annealing the brass is the best course of action.

Thanks for all the info and advice folks. Much appreciated.

[F. Guffey]

SSshooterz,

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jun96cases.html

Annealing on the Internet could be anything from waving the brass over a fire, using a candle, temperatures from as low as 400 to as high as 800 degree, so I added the link above, some have trouble with seeing through the information that is not needed, I believe the most critical information furnished by the link is the temperature, placement of heat and time.
The link states annealing is from 660 to 665 degree, anneal the area to be worked, do it quick to prevent the heat from traveling.

F. Guffey

[sonofafish]

Hay, if you need some brass I have about 500 and can spare some if you pay freight I'll send some to you. It is all once fired brass.

[rickdavis81]

I've formed all my 25-06 brass from 30-06. Simply because I sold my 30-06 and had a crap load of brass. Then I bought a 25-06 and didn't have any brass. I went straight from 30-06 to 25-06. Didn't anneal just trimmed. I use lee dies but I think you might have your die screwed to far down. Try backing it out a little. Hope that helps

[WadePatton]

The annealing method I used years ago was to stand the cases in water nearly to the shoulder thus preventing any softening of the web and head. I'd do it that way again if I had the need.

But brass is cheap and available these days.

I was heating with a propane torch. Low lighting helps to see the color change in the metal...but I work with steel mostly so do your research.