Trouble with F/L Sizing .308 Win

FJJ3 · January 24, 2011, 09:15 AM

hello everyone

first, i'll detail my setup, then the issue i'm having. I'm using a turret press, it was given to me by my father and i do not know the brand. I'm using RCBS dies & shellholder. I use Wilson case gauges, but i do not have the RCBS Precision Mic.

i have been reloading for a few years now and this is the first time i've encountered this issue with my .308 brass (and .270). I'm currently working on LC .308 brass. I set the F/L resize die a 1/8turn after it touches the shell holder, lube my cases with Dillon's case lube. Resizing didnt require excessive force. after checking length, trimming, debur/chamfer, the brass fits in the Wilson case gauge, however when i check them in my rifle (Savage 12 F/TR) the bolt binds when closing. I used a felt tip to color a case & put it in the rifle. I'm getting marks just below the shoulder on the body of the case & very faint marks on the shoulder itself. the neck wasnt scratched at all. i've tried moving the die down/up, removing the expander ball still all the same problem. I have 50 cases on the bench, and 46 of them are like this. I have the same binding on some fire-formed unloaded brass for this rifle also, which worked fine before firing.

JDM · January 24, 2011, 12:30 PM

I had this problem with a .270- I found that if i put the casing in the shell holder, it would not rotate in the shell holder without some more than usual force. I found out that there was just enough bulge right at the base that could not be reached with full length sizing. the angle of the base was not a perfect 90 degrees to the shell. i tossed those out, went to my buddies house and picked up some once fired from his rifle, no problems. End result was that the casings were neck sized only from the first firing, then the case expanded and the retraction ring was bending them on the way out.
Dont know if thats even close to what you have going on, but hopefully it will give you some new areas to search and measure. Check the run-out on the casings by putting them in a drill press chuck on its lowest speed. If there is any bend angle problem it will be very apparent visually.
Good luck-

dmazur · January 24, 2011, 12:50 PM

It is quite common for once-fired brass to refuse to chamber smoothly. If your resized brass is showing the same behavior, I'm going to guess that it isn't being resized.

The Wilson-type case gauges are deliberately oversized in diameter to prevent interference in measuring distance to shoulder. That's all that's supposed to touch. They are not chamber substitutes like pistol-caliber case gauges.

You can use a Wilson gauge to measure the change in head-shoulder datum after resizing, if you straddle the top step with the end of the caliper and use the depth rod to measure the depth to the case.

For bolt-actions, I believe you are looking for around 0.001" to 0.002" of shoulder bump.

If you don't see this difference, you aren't actually moving the shoulder back.

PA-Joe · January 24, 2011, 01:24 PM

You can also try turning the case and sizing it twice. Size then turn 90-180 and size again.

GeauxTide · January 24, 2011, 09:32 PM

I suspect the Mil Brass. Try firing a box of factory Rems or WW in that rifle. Start with a penny width between the shell holder and the die. Try to chamber. If not, screw the die down as before and try 'er again. If that don't work, you've got the tightest chamber on a 308 that I've ever heard of.

FJJ3 · January 25, 2011, 11:13 AM

thanks for the tips everyone! i moved the f/l die down in small increments till the round chambered. it still allowed the cam action. i think the problem is coming in with the turret press' movement.

zippy13 · January 25, 2011, 11:27 AM

Greetings FJJ3 and welcome aboard,

Quote:

I have the same binding on some fire-formed unloaded brass for this rifle also, which worked fine before firing.

Humm… Have you given the rifle a close inspection?

FJJ3 · January 25, 2011, 03:30 PM

to my eye there is nothing wrong with the rifle. it's very clean, no scratches, dents, dings, rust, etc. it is still new however, i apologize for not mentioning that. i've only fired about 300 rounds out of it. should i have a gunsmith check out the rifle?

TATER · January 25, 2011, 03:55 PM

Your fix was correct, Now, Mark that spot on the turret
and use the same slot for sizing die every time.

zippy13 · January 25, 2011, 04:41 PM

Quote:

i've only fired about 300 rounds out of it. should i have a gunsmith check out the rifle?

Have you tried chambering a factory load recently?

William T. Watts · January 26, 2011, 04:42 PM

RCBS instructions specify between 1/8 & 1/4 turn after contacting the shell holder, try turning the die in an additional 1/8 turn and that may solve your problem! William

**Unclenick** · January 26, 2011, 05:50 PM

Looks like he's discovered that.

FJJ3,

Take a look at Lee's help video for setting up a sizing die. Note the inspection for a crack of light between the die and shell holder at the end. You want to turn the die down until that just disappears.

Brass has a certain amount of elasticity, so a case that was originally fired in a generous military NATO chamber may not size down small enough in one try for tight civilian .308 chamber. Sometimes that requires a small base die. Another technique I've used, similar to Pa-Joe's, is to run the case up in the die and let it relax while I count to five. I pull it down and rotate it and do that two more times. I can sometimes get it as much as 0.002" shorter at the shoulder that way.

Note also that a lot of LC that has been once-fired has gone through automatic or semi-automatic weapons. This frequently has bent and burred case rims and left them out of square. They will square up on firing. You usually just have to get them fired in your gun once, then they will size and behave OK for it in the future. Only with very extremely stretched cases does that not always work out. The symptom will be sticky extraction even if the load is just a starting load.

700cdl · January 26, 2011, 09:39 PM

I've had this happen from time to time. I just size it twice turning it 180 degrees. I've been neckng my brass lately and have noticed better chambering characteristics over all. I expected more issues but am getting better results. Who knows?

January 24, 2011, 09:15 AM	#1
FJJ3 Junior Member Join Date: January 23, 2011 Posts: 11	Trouble with F/L Sizing .308 Win hello everyone first, i'll detail my setup, then the issue i'm having. I'm using a turret press, it was given to me by my father and i do not know the brand. I'm using RCBS dies & shellholder. I use Wilson case gauges, but i do not have the RCBS Precision Mic. i have been reloading for a few years now and this is the first time i've encountered this issue with my .308 brass (and .270). I'm currently working on LC .308 brass. I set the F/L resize die a 1/8turn after it touches the shell holder, lube my cases with Dillon's case lube. Resizing didnt require excessive force. after checking length, trimming, debur/chamfer, the brass fits in the Wilson case gauge, however when i check them in my rifle (Savage 12 F/TR) the bolt binds when closing. I used a felt tip to color a case & put it in the rifle. I'm getting marks just below the shoulder on the body of the case & very faint marks on the shoulder itself. the neck wasnt scratched at all. i've tried moving the die down/up, removing the expander ball still all the same problem. I have 50 cases on the bench, and 46 of them are like this. I have the same binding on some fire-formed unloaded brass for this rifle also, which worked fine before firing.

January 24, 2011, 12:50 PM	#3
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	It is quite common for once-fired brass to refuse to chamber smoothly. If your resized brass is showing the same behavior, I'm going to guess that it isn't being resized. The Wilson-type case gauges are deliberately oversized in diameter to prevent interference in measuring distance to shoulder. That's all that's supposed to touch. They are not chamber substitutes like pistol-caliber case gauges. You can use a Wilson gauge to measure the change in head-shoulder datum after resizing, if you straddle the top step with the end of the caliper and use the depth rod to measure the depth to the case. For bolt-actions, I believe you are looking for around 0.001" to 0.002" of shoulder bump. If you don't see this difference, you aren't actually moving the shoulder back. __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

January 26, 2011, 05:50 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Looks like he's discovered that. FJJ3, Take a look at Lee's help video for setting up a sizing die. Note the inspection for a crack of light between the die and shell holder at the end. You want to turn the die down until that just disappears. Brass has a certain amount of elasticity, so a case that was originally fired in a generous military NATO chamber may not size down small enough in one try for tight civilian .308 chamber. Sometimes that requires a small base die. Another technique I've used, similar to Pa-Joe's, is to run the case up in the die and let it relax while I count to five. I pull it down and rotate it and do that two more times. I can sometimes get it as much as 0.002" shorter at the shoulder that way. Note also that a lot of LC that has been once-fired has gone through automatic or semi-automatic weapons. This frequently has bent and burred case rims and left them out of square. They will square up on firing. You usually just have to get them fired in your gun once, then they will size and behave OK for it in the future. Only with very extremely stretched cases does that not always work out. The symptom will be sticky extraction even if the load is just a starting load. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 24, 2011, 12:30 PM	#2
JDM Junior Member Join Date: January 20, 2011 Posts: 2	I had this problem with a .270- I found that if i put the casing in the shell holder, it would not rotate in the shell holder without some more than usual force. I found out that there was just enough bulge right at the base that could not be reached with full length sizing. the angle of the base was not a perfect 90 degrees to the shell. i tossed those out, went to my buddies house and picked up some once fired from his rifle, no problems. End result was that the casings were neck sized only from the first firing, then the case expanded and the retraction ring was bending them on the way out. Dont know if thats even close to what you have going on, but hopefully it will give you some new areas to search and measure. Check the run-out on the casings by putting them in a drill press chuck on its lowest speed. If there is any bend angle problem it will be very apparent visually. Good luck-

January 24, 2011, 01:24 PM	#4
PA-Joe Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: NEPA Posts: 909	You can also try turning the case and sizing it twice. Size then turn 90-180 and size again.

January 24, 2011, 09:32 PM	#5
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,423	I suspect the Mil Brass. Try firing a box of factory Rems or WW in that rifle. Start with a penny width between the shell holder and the die. Try to chamber. If not, screw the die down as before and try 'er again. If that don't work, you've got the tightest chamber on a 308 that I've ever heard of.

January 25, 2011, 11:13 AM	#6
FJJ3 Junior Member Join Date: January 23, 2011 Posts: 11	thanks for the tips everyone! i moved the f/l die down in small increments till the round chambered. it still allowed the cam action. i think the problem is coming in with the turret press' movement.

January 25, 2011, 03:30 PM	#8
FJJ3 Junior Member Join Date: January 23, 2011 Posts: 11	to my eye there is nothing wrong with the rifle. it's very clean, no scratches, dents, dings, rust, etc. it is still new however, i apologize for not mentioning that. i've only fired about 300 rounds out of it. should i have a gunsmith check out the rifle?

January 25, 2011, 03:55 PM	#9
TATER Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 963	Your fix was correct, Now, Mark that spot on the turret and use the same slot for sizing die every time.

January 26, 2011, 04:42 PM	#11
William T. Watts Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 1,074	RCBS instructions specify between 1/8 & 1/4 turn after contacting the shell holder, try turning the die in an additional 1/8 turn and that may solve your problem! William

January 26, 2011, 09:39 PM	#13
700cdl Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2010 Posts: 216	I've had this happen from time to time. I just size it twice turning it 180 degrees. I've been neckng my brass lately and have noticed better chambering characteristics over all. I expected more issues but am getting better results. Who knows?