Shooting animals for the sake of shooting them?

[SteelJM1]

Just reading through a thread in another part of the forum made me wonder: Are people really afraid of coyotes, or are they just looking for quick justification to have something alive to shoot at? Certain things that were said really touched a nerve in me, and it made me realize that it's no wonder that a lot of non-gun people think we're all a bunch of rednecks he-hawing at the thought of blasting away a creature just because we can.

Granted, yes, if one is actually brave enough to attack(which is extremely rare for kids, and almost nonexistant for adults), then by all means dispatch it. I will always carry when camping, but more for actually DANGEROUS animals (usually bipedal... or snakes) than skittish 40 pound dogs. Even then I wouldn't blast a snake unless it already bit me, or is getting ready to at my next move.

Maybe I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, but am I the only one that sees this?

[ronc0011]

I would think most people shoot coyotes for the same reason that people kill rats. If their population isn’t controlled they will begin to create big problems. Also when you live in a rural environment the daily necessities of life such as control of predatory animals become common place, they are not viewed with all the attendant hand wringing that they are with city dwellers. My uncle raises exotic game animals ( he used to raise cattle) and if a stray dog is seen on the place he is immediately dealt with, with the trusty old 410 or 22. No body in these areas have animals that they let wander around loose because they will get shot if they turn up on any neighbors property. These kinds of animals are very destructive.

[Silvanus]

I think there are probably some people who only shoot them to kill something. They probably wouldn't admit it, though.

[SteelJM1]

But their population IS controlled, by natural predation, animal control, and accidental car deaths. Cougars eat coyotes. Coyotes and cougars both eat deer. They're pretty close to their natural numbers and they aren't creating these mythical 'big problems' i always hear about. You want to know a big problem? Killing off the wolf population, now the deer population goes out of control. THAT's a big problem. I understand if you own livestock that are being attacked, by all means, defend your livestock, but otherwise I don't buy it. Nope i can just see a couple guys hiking some trails, seeing a couple coyotes a little bit away and saying with a grin "hey bubba, betcha can't hit him from here!"

[Bigfatts]

But their population IS controlled, by natural predation, animal control, and accidental car deaths. Cougars eat coyotes. Coyotes and cougars both eat deer. They're pretty close to their natural numbers and they aren't creating these mythical 'big problems' i always hear about.

If you really believe that, I'm sorry. They are not well controlled, or at all in many cases. In many places they are fed by people who think "Look at the pretty puppy!" Then they lose their fear of man and get brave, and aggressive. There was a case a little while ago of a little girl getting chomped by a Coyote here. They populate far faster than Cougars and cars can kill them. In some places there are no natural predators. And even where there are, Coyote isn't likely to be on the menu regularly. Especially since Coyotes are often found in multiples. I think Florida has something like 40 panthers left in the wild, and they have plenty of deer to eat without having the risk of being bitten back. Also there really isn't a good way to determine their exact numbers. Most people confuse them with dogs and don't really take any notice. I've seen them walking down the street in my subdivision in the middle of the afternoon. They kill livestock for the sheer pleasure of killing it, don't always even eat it. (A goat farm up the street from me lost more than 10 goats one night when a Coyote got in the pen. Know how many it ate? None.)

Give animal control a call sometime and tell them you've got a very brave Coyote coming in close to your house and acting aggressively when you walk your dogs. Tell them it gets in your garbage cans regularly. I did, you know what they said? "Is it rabid?" "No." "Oh sorry, we don't deal with Coyotes." One morning I took my wife's Dachsund out in the front yard (on a leash thank the lord) and there stands Mr Coyote at the end of the driveway lookin' at me as he licks my garbage off his lips. I wave my hands and stomp and talk threateningly, he bares his teeth and growls. He went back to my garbage when I picked up the Dachsund and went inside. One Velocitor to the forehead later, another heavier garbage bag.

Oh and I usually don't agree with predator hunting. I don't have anything against people who do, I simply am not into trophies as much as I am a full freezer.

[zoomie]

Come on down to TX and tell the cattle ranchers that the coyote population is "controlled." You might just get laughed off your northeastern high horse.

[SteelJM1]

One morning I took my wife's Dachsund out in the front yard (on a leash thank the lord) and there stands Mr Coyote at the end of the driveway lookin' at me as he licks my garbage off his lips. I wave my hands and stomp and talk threateningly, he bares his teeth and growls. He went back to my garbage when I picked up the Dachsund and went inside. One Velocitor to the forehead later, another heavier garbage bag.

That's a good reason to kill it. It's agressive and not responding to human aggression, then it IS dangerous and I would shoot it just as quickly as anyone else. As with the cattle farms, again i say, to defend your livestock is fine. Maybe we should shoot the people stupid enough to FEED the wild predators, eh? I KNOW there are the people that go out for coyotes that hunt them for the sake of the hunt/kill.

Anyway, if wild coyotes are apparently such a big problem, why then aren't we shooting domestic dogs a lot more? They are responsible for a lot more attacks and deaths (on human ADULTS nonetheless) than coyotes and cougars combined.

Come on down to TX and tell the cattle ranchers that the coyote population is "controlled." You might just get laughed off your northeastern high horse.

OH hooo, So because i'm unfortunatley stuck in this hell hole state (where its snowing right now goddamn it) I'm automatically a high-horse riding, northeastern blissninny liberal who things than animals lives are worth more than human ones? Well then, you couldn't be more wrong, but if we're going to start stereotyping, i'll just call you a southern bumpkin texan redneck, dumb as the day is long. How's that?

BTW, I'm planning on moving down to Tuscon anyway, cause i prefer the SW much more compared to the NE, so no offense meant. While i'm down there, I'm planning on doing a lot of camping, hiking, and yes, hunting... rabbits. Im not shaking in my boots aobut coyotes OR cougars, I'm more worried about illegals than anything!

[animal]

Coyotes have no natural enemies in MS. The breed like rats and will mix with feral dogs.
When they move into an area The quail and rabbits disappear, the turkeys get really scarce and the deer also suffer. Several years back, the area that I hunt had an influx of these creatures. No one paid any attention to them at first and left them alone. Within 2 years, the quail were nowhere to be found, you were lucky to bag 1 rabbit every other hunt, and the turkey hunters were crying.

We, the billy-bob yahoo rednecks, spent about a year and a half on a campaign of coyote/feral dog death. Several times that I know of, hunters passed up shots on deer and turkey in order to kill one of these pests. Most of the hunting clubs in 4 counties were involved. Now you see one every once in a while (as it should be). Singles are generally left alone but if a pack is spotted, it is thinned.

[SteelJM1]

I'm sorry to hear that thay have been a problem in your state, animal (they are becoming a problem here too), but think of it this way: WHY do they have no natural enemies and WHY are they a problem in the first place?

[Bigfatts]

Anyway, if wild coyotes are apparently such a big problem, why then aren't we shooting domestic dogs a lot more? They are responsible for a lot more attacks and deaths (on human ADULTS nonetheless) than coyotes and cougars combined.

This is true. But then again many incidents involving Coyotes are wrongly reported as involving a dog. Again, many people can't really tell the difference. Unless it looks like that Wolf they saw on Animal Planet, it's a dog. Also, Coyote populations vary from area to area. From the sounds of it, they aren't a big problem in your area. Here, they are. Were they on their own in a natural setting in the wild they would be fine. But they aren't. They are moving into our subdivisions, they are eating our pets, they are out of control. That was my basic point. Here, basically the only control they get is from hunting. It is not killing for the sake of killing by and large, it is neccessity. In your area maybe the Animal Control and such are doing a better job of it.

I KNOW there are the people that go out for coyotes that hunt them for the sake of the hunt/kill.

This is true. To some, the thrill of the hunt is all that is important. Pitting themselves against nature and winning. Then there are the really unfortunate cases where people hunt because they get literal pleasure from ending another being's life. I don't follow those lines of thinking.

[Bigfatts]

WHY do they have no natural enemies and WHY are they a problem in the first place?

Because alot of our recent ancestors supported themselves with the livestock they raised and competed with natural predators for needed table meat. And any threat to that meager living was exterminated, sometimes to the extreme, in the case of the Wolf and Cougar. I remember my Grandpa telling me of his father's monthly Panther hunts. There was no thought to the future, there was only what you had to do to survive. Now we're left to care for the hold overs. We also have to thin the herds in the case of a few animals because the scales have been unbalanced.

[SteelJM1]

This is true. But then again many incidents involving Coyotes are wrongly reported as involving a dog. Again, many people can't really tell the difference. Unless it looks like that Wolf they saw on Animal Planet, it's a dog. Also, Coyote populations vary from area to area. From the sounds of it, they aren't a big problem in your area. Here, they are. Were they on their own in a natural setting in the wild they would be fine. But they aren't. They are moving into our subdivisions, they are eating our pets, they are out of control. That was my basic point. Here, basically the only control they get is from hunting. It is not killing for the sake of killing by and large, it is neccessity. In your area maybe the Animal Control and such are doing a better job of it.

I'll give you that; the fact that some people are confusing coyotes with dogs. Theres still a lot of domestic dog attacks, and a lot of dogs are a lot bigger. The coyotes are becoming a problem in MA and some people want to extend the season on them (which then wails of protest come from animal protectionists, which i am NOT). The reason behind the coyote population explosion is because the gray wolf population has been hunted to near extinction. Another thing i want to point out with your argument is that it's not only that they're moving into our neighborhoods, but vice versa. The suburban sprawl is a big part of this problem.

This is true. To some, the thrill of the hunt is all that is important. Pitting themselves against nature and winning. Then there are the really unfortunate cases where people hunt because they get literal pleasure from ending another being's death. I don't follow those lines of thinking.

That's what i was going after. I think theres a lot more of those people than we care to admit. IT looks to me like coyote hunting is more akin to shooting fish in a barrel (even here), so i don't see much sport in it, honestly. I think its time we start thinking ahead in terms of wildlife management instead of the old though process of "move where ya want and kill anything that gets in the way". That's the reason the wolf population is nonexistant here, and why the coyotes have taken over. Even then there's still a heckova lot of deer to go around, to where it's becoming problematic. If we manage to kill off the coyotoes..somehow... then we'll just introduce new problems.

[SteelJM1]

Because alot of our recent ancestors supported themselves with the livestock they raised and competed with natural predators for needed table meat. And any threat to that meager living was exterminated, sometimes to the extreme, in the case of the Wolf and Cougar. I remember my Grandpa telling me of his father's monthly Panther hunts. There was no thought to the future, there was only what you had to do to survive. Now we're left to care for the hold overs. We also have to thin the herds in the case of a few animals because the scales have been unbalanced.

Precisely. We can't change the past, but because we're not supporting ourselves like that, we must change our thinking and ways of dealing with overpopulated wildlife.

[animal]

One problem with them is that THEY seem to kill for "fun". Their instinct to hunt/kill is stronger than their need for food. It is a sad sight when you find a dozen or more quail dead, feathers and blood all over the place, one or two partially eaten, and coyote tracks.
The only natural enemies they ever had in this area that I know of were panthers and wolves. Panthers are long gone. I saw one scrawny gray wolf about 6 mos. ago (first one I’ve seen since I was a kid).. and no, I wasn’t tempted to shoot it.
Why are their natural enemies gone? …. Largely, they were killed off over a hundred years ago. Until they come back it becomes man’s responsibility to take their place and keep the coyote in line

[joab]

But their population IS controlled, by natural predation, animal control, and accidental car deaths

Not true at all
A few months ago we had coyotes running down main street
We don't have cougars and coyotes have no natural predators here

OH hooo, So because i'm unfortunatley stuck in this hell hole state (where its snowing right now goddamn it) I'm automatically a high-horse riding, northeastern blissninny liberal who things than animals lives are worth more than human ones?

No but all the posts that you have made so far have indicated that thisis an appropriate description of you

Well then, you couldn't be more wrong, but if we're going to start stereotyping, i'll just call you a southern bumpkin texan redneck, dumb as the day is long. How's that?

Isn't that pretty much what all your post so far have added up to anyway

Why don't you wait till you get to Tucson before commenting on something you obviously have no knowledge of and can only present an emotion based argument about
Or at the very least why don't you actually try to learn from those with experience on the subject before interjecting your personal uneducated bias on the subject

[Bigfatts]

Another thing i want to point out with your argument is that it's not only that they're moving into our neighborhoods, but vice versa. The suburban sprawl is a big part of this problem.

Again, this is true. But though it is unfortunate it is inevitable that as the human population increases and spreads out, the animal populations must decrease and consolidate

But that is not the entire problem with Coyotes. Their problem is their smarts. They have come to the realization that where there are people, there is easy food, whether that food be in the garbage can at the end of the driveway or walking sedately at the end of a leash. And they have the perfect camouflage to get it unnoticed.

[Paul B.]

Well, Steel, I'm not going to agree with with you on the coyote problem. They are a problem. The state of Arizona has had at least two specialhunts at night up in the northern part of the state because they are literally kiling off the antelope fawns as fast as they are born. One herd had only 6 young survive to adulthood. Night hunts are normally illegal, even for coyotes.
When I lived in nevada in the late 1970s, I was paid bounty money by the local ranchers to kill coyote and I was allowed to keep the hides for sale. The hide were sold to fur buyer at at average of $100 a skin if properly prepared. I averaged $115 a coyote. The area in northern Nevada was big cattle country and a cow giving birth to a calf was defenseless to protect the calf as it was being born. They would eat the calf as the mother was birthing it. I've seen this more than once and it is not a pretty sight. The last year I did this kind of work, I cleared over $8,000 in sold hides and bounty money. Today, the price for hides wouldn't pay for the cost of ammo.
I still hunt them today, but rather than call them in, I sit on a hill and glass, just as if I hunted deer or elk. When I spot one, I try and do a stalk to get within range. Probably 99 percent of the time the coyote wins, but it's fun anyway.
You mentioned you were considering coming to Tucson. If you do, look me up. I'll give you a grand tour of the desert. I might even try and call up a yote ot two for you. I'll guarantee you that it isn't like shooting fish in a barrel.
Paul B.

[animal]

I forgot to mention... After thinning coyote/feral dog population, other animals recovered quickly except for the quail. They're back now too but it took several years.

[SteelJM1]

Well, my mistake, i was originally speaking of the places where the coyotes DO have natural predators, not to where they've spread because of the lack thereof. Like here.

Not emotion based...well not in the way that i have some love for coyotes. No the truth is i get a little ticked when I hear of people hee-hawing over shooting a couple that just crossed their path.

Problem with controlling them by killing their population off is that the scientific facts point towards the conclusion that if their population starts to dwindle, most of the offspring born are female to then reinvigorate the population. I'm just saying its not as simple as just killing them off to keep their numbers down, because that isn't working, Unless you kill them all. At least that was the case in CA that i read about.

Anyway, this has veered quite a bit from my original intent to the direction of this thread. my 'high-horse' attitude is only of those who go out to hunt any animal, not for food or so much sport, but becasue they are easy to find and they can. The kind of people who would hunt to extinction and not even bat an eye. MY attitude has nothing to do with my location, and If i didn't have "MA" printed in there, it probably wold have never been brought up (which i knew it would, eventually).

edit: bah ok so i lost this one. But I still think in terms of population control, there has to be more thought put into this one than what we've been doing for years. And i still dont like people who get kicks out of shooting anything that moves.

[Bigfatts]

And i still dont like people who get kicks out of shooting anything that moves.

I agree.

[joab]

If i didn't have "MA" printed in there, it probably wold have never been brought up

The origin of the attitude is easily discernible
It almost always come from a city dweller with little or no true experience with dealing with what they are railing against

[SteelJM1]

The origin of the attitude is easily discernible
It almost always come from a city dweller with little or no true experience with dealing with what they are railing against

I live in the sticks, and prefer them. I'm railing against like i said before, people who go out blasting anything that moves for the kicks. Trust me when I say, I have a tough time in this part of the country at my age to be pro-gun and pro -CCW when most of my friends have been brainwashed by the liberal attitudes around here. It sure makes chasing tail hard as soon as these girls find out I have guns.

[Mainah]

It's a great question. I can only speak for myself, living in a semi-rural part of Maine. Coyotes repopulated the state in the last century, the came down from Canada and filled the vacuum that was created after wolves, cougars, and most bears were wiped out. They may have crossbred with wolves in Canada, they've had recorded weights of up to 75 pounds in Maine.

Yeah, people shoot them for fun. But people also shoot them because they eat sheep, chickens, and other livestock. I've noticed that since coyotes have established themselves in suburban and urban areas some of the same people who cry and moan about shooting deer are worried to pieces about coyotes. I love it when I see a letter to the editor complaining about a coyote eating a pet cat- hello!???!- food chain.

Coyotes are fantastic. I love hearing them call at night in the woods behind the house. but I'd hunt the heck out of them if I had stock to protect. To me they represent nature's resilience.

[obxned]

If coyotes are 'well controlled", why are they now found in nearly every state instead of limited to the few states they originally inhabitied?

[joab]

I have a tough time in this part of the country at my age to be pro-gun and pro -CCW when most of my friends have been brainwashed by the liberal attitudes around here. It sure makes chasing tail hard as soon as these girls find out I have guns.

My nephew lives in that part of the country and does alright
Perhaps it has to do with more than just being progun
Perhaps it has to do with an attitude that encourages you to criticize things you know nothing about and tell others how they should behaved based on broadbrush emotional arguments