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Old July 4, 2006, 10:39 PM   #26
Art Eatman
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Back, I dunno, maybe 40 years ago, the Michigan wildlife folks high-fenced a 100-acre tract that was heavily wooded and had a lot of understory. They stocked it to the limit of the land's carrying capacity for deer.

During the next deer season, they put a controlled number of hunters in the tract, carefully spaced.

As I recall from the article, the hunter success rate was around 3%. Yeah, three percent.

I hunted prairie dogs a couple of weeks back, about an hour or so east of Colorado Springs. Darned near like a pool table, and trees/brush were rare things. 2,000 acres would be easy pickings to see a deer. (Or antelope).

To me, then, the control for "fair chase" within high fencing is the terrain and the "growies" on the land. (Leaving out such ridiculous notions as some little 10-acre patch.)

Overall, for me, playing Sneaky Snake is the most fun for hunting Bambi.

, Art
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Old July 4, 2006, 11:49 PM   #27
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I hunt in the norther lower peninsula of Michigan, I have hunted the same area with my father and brother for the last four years. We hunt for three weeks of bow season and have yet to get even a doe, and we use bait! (its legal).

I know people that sit in blinds that have bait piles that are always there and they don't always get their deer.

Then I come on here and some guy from New York or Wisconsin that hunts in a corn field with a high powered rifle states that the way I hunt is cheap and unfair!

I use bait because I don't have 1000 acres of corn fields to "hunt" in. At best I can see 50 yards, without a bait pile to keep the deer busy I may not even see ONE deer (and a doe at that) for the whole season.
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Old July 5, 2006, 01:29 AM   #28
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rbernie,
Just to get us on the same page, where I am from "bait" is determined to be any food crop not put there in the normal course of agriculture, as well as feed scattered or deposited by hand or machine. So a little patch of corn you never harvest, right next to the pond your duck blind is on...that's bait.
We grow litterally millions of acres of wheat and alfalfa in the course of normal agriculture here. These crops would not be considered bait, and shouldn't be, because there is just too much of it for it to act as a lure in any one place.

Art,
I'm sorry if I did not tread respectfully. While I am quite emphatic about the subject at hand, I was not trying to be offensive. I also am not saying that I would not take place in a "shoot". However, were I to bag a trophy animal this way, I would always end the tale with a "yeah...I sure wish I had been able to pursue such an animal on his terms." Or something to that effect.
When high nutrient feed is fed to animals in an enclosure, it has a predictable result: they get BIG. If one were to try to submit a pen-raised & pen-caught fish as a record book catch, he would be debunked as a fraud. Is it simply an attempt at falsifying glory. That does not mean that it is wrong to catch such fish, or indeed to shoot such animals, only that it is wrong to portray the act and the outcome as something it is not.
I am pretty new here, and thus far have been very much in agreeance with most of what you have to say, but I am afraid that here we muse agree to disagree. Of course since enlightened debate is one of the founding principals of our great nation, I intend to continuue enjoying your opinion, even if I do not agree with it.
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Old July 5, 2006, 08:30 AM   #29
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Exotic animals are not native to North America. But they're thriving at game ranches across USA and parts of Canada. New Zealand, Australia, New Calodonia, South Africa, Argentina, and other nations also offer exotic hunts.

A trophy hunter can pursue European red stag, fallow deer or Indian axis deer + blackbuck. African sable, kudu, and gemsbok are available. Even endangered species such as addax, symitar-horned oryx, Eld's deer, and others are thriving at USA game ranches. There is a significant advantage hunting within USA as opposed to travelling overeseas.

Some of these game ranches offer shooting of fairly tame animals. This is controversial to say the least! Others (larger in size) have hunts which are challenging in terrain and getting close for a good shot.

I advise any hunter to take the time to research the game ranch thoroughly so it will match his expectations.

Good hunting to you.
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Old July 5, 2006, 11:56 AM   #30
Art Eatman
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I can understand the use of "bait" while hunting. I don't particularly care for nor approve what's going on with breeding programs and all the supplemental feeding in an effort to CREATE monster bucks.

Sure, build high fences to keep other deer out, in order to maintain a herd at the carrying capacity of the land. Sure, reintroduce native grasses, herbs and forbs which had been lost to farming or overgrazing. That, to me, is a rational interaction with ecosystems.

But that's not the limit of what's being done on "game ranches" which specialize in these multi-thousand-dollar hunts.

I suggest that in these discussions we keep stuff separate. Hunting over a feeder in a truly-wild-deer environment, I think, is different from being set out in in a stand on one of these game ranches. In the first, there's no guarantee that El Gigantico will ever show up; all you'll maybe see is a few does*. In the second, it's pretty well assured that big bucks will continue to show up at a place where they've been trained to expect Yummies.

Art

* Whitetail bucks generally don't eat much or often, once they're in rut. They subsist off the fat buildup that occurs in the late September and October "feeding frenzy". That's why a late-season buck's tallow is commonly a thin, yellow layer instead of thick and white. So, the does come to feeders and the larger bucks hang back in the brush, watching and waiting--and you might or might not see one. Little 4-point and 6-point bucks might show up, but they're generally too small to bother with.
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Old July 6, 2006, 01:28 AM   #31
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Art,
I guess I never really looked at your profile. If I were from Texas instead of "Montucky" I might have been raised seeing things in a different light. I simply grew up with a different definition of free chase.

Now I do NOT mean this as a jibe, but up here we do refer to high fences, bait stations, food plots & high dollar pay for play as "Texas style" hunting, and it is usually spoken with disdain. I DO however see the need for fences in the case of exotics. It would not be the same as a real hunt in the real Africa, but I always wanted to plug a gemsbok, and TX might be on the list for that. Also, my wife and I might go on a Bison shoot next year, as the meat is wonderful. Also, we have no wild pork here in MT, soooo.....
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Old July 6, 2006, 08:59 AM   #32
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Make sure when you sit down to the dinner table for some of that bison or gemsbok you say at the end of your prayer, and I quote you in saying, "yeah...I sure wish I had been able to pursue such an animal on his terms.".

Just to keep things on a level playing field.

God bless hunters of every kind!
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Old July 6, 2006, 11:20 AM   #33
Art Eatman
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samsmix, I'd bet a paycheck that all the high-fenced land in Texas wouldn't even come close to one percent of ranchland.

The O2 Ranch, for instance, south of Alpine, is low-fence. 200,000 acres on the west side of the highway, 100,000 acres on the east side. I know of NO high-fenced ranches anywhere in the Davis Mountains. IOW, none in the four million acres that is Brewster County, or in Jeff Davis County.

I can take off from my house and not even see the remains of an old fence until I'm twenty and more miles away.

Anybody judging Texas by the amount of high fence culls his women by a mole on her ankle...

, Art
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Old July 6, 2006, 12:37 PM   #34
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How you grew up...

I think it really comes down to whats the norm in your area and how many animals are in your area and overall enviroment in your area and each individual case. For instance:
If I worked for a company that sponsered a few Trophy game ranch hunts a year, for the Triple 7 ranch or something equal for people that wanted them (kinda like Tickets to the superbowl or something) I would have no problem going since it was on the companys bill. I personally would never pay out has much money as they want for one of those hunts, thats "Just Me"
though.
For putting out a Feeder or "Baiting" depending on the situation is ok for me unless you just have Deer running rampid but I don't like using a feeder on a timer unless your hunting a lease you paid alot of money for. I mean if your feeder goes off at 7am and 7pm then it's kind of a crap shoot, but if you got a bucket of Corn with a pole sticking out out of the bottom on a trail you are sure a bucks run on and you can't see more than 15 feet in front of you and you had to cut shooting lanes just to see 50 yards then you almost have to have something to stop them or get them to you.

Or

In my current situation, there is absolutlly no way I can keep tabs on the movement of animals on the lease i'm on. Since i'm in the Navy stationed in Washington and I'm on a lease with my dad and best friend in Texas that I pay 800 bucks for and get to use maybe twice a year if i'm lucky. I will hunt a feeder and I will hunt from a stand but after I bag at least on deer be it a spike, doe or Trophy buck... I will probally stop stand hunting and do more stalking/still hunting but I have to get at least one to justify the cost of the lease in some weird twisted way in my brain.
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Old July 6, 2006, 12:49 PM   #35
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Like some others have mentioned, I am a still hunter. I prefer heavy cover, swamps and creekbeds. With scouting and observation, I know where the deer in my hunting area bed, water, feed, and play. I know what they eat, and when they are putting the feed bag on.
This is merely cutting down the odds.
Sometimes I climb up into a stand, particularly if hunting across a clear cut or hay field. Nothing wrong at all with stand hunting. Even in a stand though, you have to know your animal to know where to place the stand.
Now a 'canned hunt' is a different matter. There, the guide has done all the scouting, placed the hunter in the stand, and sometimes even drives the deer to the hunter. Some folks like that kind of action. I don't. However, I am not going to talk down to the guy who takes his deer that way. I might not have any respect for his woodscraft, or lack thereof, but he is still hunting the way that he likes to hunt.
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Old July 6, 2006, 04:10 PM   #36
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Ever wonder why kids don't hunt anymore??? Hunting is to dang expensive. The price we put on Huge Racks, is ruining our sport, our reputation, and could eventually destroy our sport all together. Why? We're pricing kids out of the equation. Most guys can barely afford to hunt themselves, and w/ kill/trophy fees on top of lease fees, you do the math. I make it a point to take my son hunting with me. He's 3 now, and loves the outdoors. He went with me Turkey hunting this spring and did a great job. I'll take my daughter too when she turns 3. I won't shove it down their throat, but I'll introduce it. If they like it, they can come. If they don't, I'll support them in the hobbies they choose. Bottom line, they will go. I hunted through out Highschool, and it kept me out of trouble. My friends were partying, I was out at the lease. Hunting, enjoying God's creation. It wasn't all about shooting something. But back to the subject matter. If my kids aren't welcome, I'm not going. I won't support the ongoing greed of bigger and better. That is not hunting. That is just greed, and I won't stand for it. I hope sportsman as a group will realize this before it is too late and the sport dies. We are headed in that direction, and only we can change it. Will you do your part?
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Old July 8, 2006, 05:56 AM   #37
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Art,
I'm glad to here you live in such open country, and I genuinly did not mean to offend. I never said it was an accurate description, but that's still what they call it up here. Now that you mention it though, that IS a rather unsightly mole she's got on her ankle! Hmmm....

DesertFox,
I don't mind eating or killing raised or even tame meat. I am still killing an animal weather I pull a trigger or pay someone to do my killing by buying meat at the supermarket.

CastNblast,
You may have a VERY good point about the future of our sport.
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IF we're not supposed to eat animals,
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Old July 8, 2006, 10:51 AM   #38
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Products of our environment

What it really comes down to is we are all shaped by how we learned.

I grew up here in Washington, so my first introduction to deer and elk hunting was the classic 'Scope, spot and Stalk' in the sage brush around Ellensburg. Getting out and walking is one of the things I enjoy. After this experience, the thought of sitting in a stand for hours just doesn't sound like FUN to me.

Samsmix, I'll tell you...Montana's description of baiting sounds a little extreme to me. Dropping a big pile of corn and apples on the ground...that sounds like baiting to me. But...buying a 120 acres, planting a couple of apple trees and some alfalfa....and then seeing what kind of deer that attracts...that's my DREAM. I would love to get a chunk of Eastern Washington land and work it to make it more attractive to the deer.

I had a thread once where I threw the smack down on guys that run deer with dogs, because it was a totally foreign concept to me...it just sounded horriblem and lazy and...ick. But, after a couple of southern gentleman took me to task and told me about all the work that goes into training the dogs, and keeping up with the dogs...I conceeded that nope, it didn't sound lazy anymore. It still didn't sound like something I wanted to do....but it WAS hunting.

As far as the original point of this thread...I think everyone has to admit that there IS such a thing as canned hunts...where there is no pretext at a Fair Chase. To me, I've just got better things to spend money on than paying four-figures to go shoot some animal. In fact....the excuse I use for not getting a deer or an elk the last few eyars is because I couldn't afford to have it processed...had to get new windows for the house

greg
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Old July 8, 2006, 12:53 PM   #39
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Texas

You would think with all this unfair bambi killing going on around here that there would be a negative effect on population. Like the whales or the little furry sea lions or the great herds of buffalo hunted to depletion. But this is not the case.

Overpopulation is the problem here, and I would bet that most rural counties in the state have more deer per acre than the land can accommodate. Ranchers now hire biologists to do expensive helicopter surveys to tell them how many deer to shoot. It is not uncommon for a 3000 acre ranch owner to be told that he needs to kill 60 deer this season and 50 next season. Plus the parks and wildlife office will issue this rancher 60 tags and open his season up for 6 months.

Now try still hunting 60 deer in one season.

I don't think Texas has lost it's desire for fair chase. Its just a unique situation.
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Old July 8, 2006, 01:29 PM   #40
Art Eatman
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For sure, king. From around Blanco up towrd Llano, Mason and Brady, there are many areas where there oughta be a bounty on does, year around, for a year or two. The habitat is so overloaded, the deer size is down toward Greyhound dog.

During the 1963-1964 deer season, the average buck weighed at the old Johnson Trading Post at the intersection of 2244 & 71 was around 125 pounds, with big ones at around 140 to 150. By 1980, the average was donw to around 85 pounds, with "big" bucks weighing 110.

Art
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Old July 8, 2006, 04:59 PM   #41
kingudaroad
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As for the original post, I don't believe that high fencing a 2 or 3 thousand acre ranch constitutes a "canned hunt". At least in this state there is plenty of cover, and the wildlife can literally disapear.

Now these small, penned up buck breeding factories that are popping up around here is another can of worms entirely.

like this one I found witha simple google search...

http://www.windy-b-ranch.com/breeders.htm
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Old July 8, 2006, 11:22 PM   #42
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Canned Hunts?advantage Hunts?

Hello Everybody,i Just Couldnt Pass Up This As My First Post In Here.ive Hunted Behind High Fenses(im Not Rich)and Ive Killed Behind No Fences,why ,is Simple When In Rome Do As The Romans Do ,as Long As It Legal.do You Hunt Rabbits With A Dog,do You Hunt Deer With A Dog?do You Choose To Use A Scope Or A Center Fire Rifle,these Are All Choices We Make,all So We Can Make A Clean Ethical Kill,and With So Many Road Poacher Today,you Need A Fence To Keep Them Out .i Know Where Some Of You Are Comeing From On Hunting Over Bait,in Tennessee A Food Plot Is Legal Maybe In New York Its Not,ok Fine Dont Do It,but Remember Before You Choose To Impose Your Choice On Someone Else,stop And Ask Your Self,what If There Was No Hunting At All,and Thats Where We Are Heading Right Now,and With Out The Help Of The Anti-hunters And Anti Gun Folks,we Are Doing A Pretty Darn Good Job Of Looseing This Battle Our Selfs,so Stop,think,and Join Together,one Voice Cant Be Heard ,but Many Will Be Known,thanks For The Moment.
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Old July 9, 2006, 02:07 AM   #43
samsmix
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King,
I gotta agree on one point: Those people you looked up at the Windy-B ranch are some rotten *&^s of *!@#$es. It will never cease to amaze my how far mankind will stoop out of sheer greed. Just the ariel photo made me want to :barf:
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Last edited by samsmix; July 11, 2006 at 04:01 AM.
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Old July 9, 2006, 08:50 AM   #44
Art Eatman
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"Find a need and fill it" is pure capitalism and marketing -- just like the narcotrafficantes. What's really sad is that their customers mostly just don't know any better. Might's well go out to a hogpen and shoot the biggest one in it and holler, "Looky what I done!"

From the tone of this thread and many others over these last several years, I think the key for us here is that we strongly believe in EARNING our game critters. We think in terms of the total package of a true hunting experience, including the camraderie, the campfire, the improvements to hunt camp or the building of stands and bunches of other things. It's a quality of life thing, I think. Shooting Bambi is only part of it, not the whole deal.

Art
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Old July 9, 2006, 09:23 AM   #45
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Foreign Concept

Looking at that website, I have to conceed that what kills me, is thinking of deer as livestock, vice a wild animal.

There is a guy up here in Washington on Vashon Island that raises a herd of elk. From what I understand he treats them just like cattle, having them slaughtered and selling the meat through local grocery stores and butcher shops.

It sounds like these guys in Texas provide two different services:

1. They breed big deer and use them to breed does and then sell the pregnant does and fawns to other people to improve 'your herd'. This doesn't sound too different from what folks do with cattle, so this doesn't bother me.

2. They let you come and hunt their deer on their land. They said they have 1600 acres, which isn't small, about 2.5 Square miles, but my question would be, how many deer do they have there, and just how much challenge is there in hunting a deer that has been raised in a pen and fed by people. These deer can't have had a chance to develop much guile or a fear of humans.

Once again....just not my style.

Quote:
From the tone of this thread and many others over these last several years, I think the key for us here is that we strongly believe in EARNING our game critters. We think in terms of the total package of a true hunting experience, including the camraderie, the campfire, the improvements to hunt camp or the building of stands and bunches of other things. It's a quality of life thing, I think. Shooting Bambi is only part of it, not the whole deal.
+1

Although, sometimes I draw a doe tag, so what I'm really looking for is Bambi's mother.
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Old July 9, 2006, 03:38 PM   #46
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Art, I couldn't agree with you more.
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Old July 9, 2006, 07:37 PM   #47
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It's a quality of life thing, I think
From the handloaded cartridge, to concocting the perfect venison recipe. It is certainly the process that I love.
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Old July 9, 2006, 11:13 PM   #48
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I think in real hunting the animal must be respected, like the game of baseball. You can not buy your way to the big leagues and I believe you should not be able to buy your way to big game hunting.

For all the arguements about working too hard and too long, I disagree. You have vacation. use it. I do not have vacation as I own my own business, I plan very hard to make sure that I have the time to go hunting. It is foremost family time, both kids hunt, about the only time I see my nephews anymore is at the deer shack. Same with my brother and his brother in law, The guys who have the property down river from us are from all over the country, They all take time to make it an event. Every Friday night before the opener we all go to a little Inn and have dinner together and catch up. This has been going on since before I was born, Old-timers no longer with us are remembered, young ones are introduced to the hunt. Every one is respected, even when being joshed about missing the "big one" while (pick one) sleeping, snoring, eating, taking a dump, etc.
Arrangements are made to bring venison to those not able to show up, either due to illness or age, it is family time. We have maybe 9 hunters, 3 of whom of women and are clamouring for exclusive use of the bunk house next year, the other group has 12 to 14.

I get tired of people who claim they are too busy to do the important things. For me it is an excuse, a reason to be lazy.

For the guys who complain the difference between a feeder and feedplot, The feedplot will last all year. The feeders only as long as someone thro;s corn in it. I have planted pear, apple, crab apple, northern white oak, popple, winter hardy strawberry, blueberry and high bush cranberry, We have planted thickets of spruce and white pine, All for the next generation. I hunt on land owned for 100 years. we are constantly manipulating the balance. wood gets cut for firewood and lumber, trees planted by my sister in laws great grandfather, (last year I made a cradle out of a Sugar Maple planted in 1905) for a great great great daughter of the man who planted it...

The kid in grad school NYC who had never been able to drive a car, that is fine, but before he goes all out let him spend a few falls in the finger lake region hunting white tail, he will be much more appreciative of what comes later. And more than likely he will change his whole mind set on what happens north and west of Manhattan...

I know a few people who have gone on canned hunts, two came back as anti's as they just saw it as slaughtering an animal for fun...it took me a couple of years to convince the one to just go bird hunting with us once, to let them realize what they had experienced was not hunting it was killing.

When culling needs to happen, I understand that. but call it that. I have spent many days out culling geese of golf courses. Canadian geese are smart and when they find a fenced, predator less, heavily maintained 500 acre lawn to eat they tend to stay. The problem comes when they eat so much grass loaded with all sorts of chemicals that the offspring begin to look like the banjo player from Deliverance. We shot one this spring with three legs...
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Old July 10, 2006, 10:32 AM   #49
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Old July 10, 2006, 12:24 PM   #50
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For all the arguements about working too hard and too long, I disagree.
Kind of hard to cast judgement about another mans resources unless you have walked in his shoes.
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