1911 CCO

BarryLee · June 14, 2017, 11:54 AM

I’m curious if anyone owns one of the 1911 CCO models and if you find it actually easier to conceal than a standard grip size gun. I carry a 1911 OWB and have no issue with the weight of the gun, but have noticed at times the butt seems to print a little.

Are the CCO models really easier to conceal?

Is the loss of one round of ammo a big deal?

I’m familiar with two models right now. The Colt Wiley Clapp CCO which seems a little hard to find and the Dan Wesson CCO which is also in limited supply. Are there other brands to consider?

Other than ammo capacity, availability and obviously cost any other issues to consider?

**Aguila Blanca** · June 14, 2017, 12:03 PM

The CCO has the grip length of an Officers ACP, so it's approximately 1/2-inch shorter than a Government Model or Commander 1911. Yes, it is much easier to conceal than a Commander. Not many manufacturers offer 1911s in the CCO configuration, but many offer them in the Officers size (3-1/2-inch barrel), which is still easier to conceal and to carry by virtue of the shorter slide.

You're talking about the difference between 6+1 and 7+1, which isn't (IMHO) significant. Carry a spare magazine in your pocket.

RickB · June 14, 2017, 01:08 PM

True Officers size, with a 3.5" barrel, aren't really very common, anymore.
Twenty years ago, standard "1911" barrel lengths were 5, 4.25, and 3.5, but now, it's 5, 4, 3.

I've heard more than a few complaints about 3" guns being top-heavy when holstered, as so much of the gun's mass is riding high, outside the holster and above the belt, and the gun tends to flop out, away from the body.

Having 4", or 4.25" tucked into the holster should ride much better.

I've carried a Detonics Combat Master, as much shorter in the butt than an Officers, as an Officers is shorter than a Government Model, and it's a very compact gun, still holding 6+1, with a 3.5" barrel.

shaunpain · June 14, 2017, 01:40 PM

I own a Sig C3 CCO pattern pistol and it is far and away much easier to conceal than a full size frame. With modern 7 round officer magazines you don't give up too much.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

chaim · June 15, 2017, 05:40 AM

Colt, Dan Wesson, SIG are all mentioned so far.

Springfield Armory has one (more or less) in the Range Officer Compact. They don't have the true 4.25" Commander sized slide, it is a 4", but same concept.

For a more budget option, Rock Island Armory has a CCO in their Rock Ultra series in their catalogue. However, they don't seem to be very available in the real world yet.

Of course, you can always make one. Get a Commander and an Officer sized gun and you can make the CCO yourself by putting the Commander slide on the Officer frame. Three guns for the price of two will give you a bit more versatility: Commander when you can conceal it (1 round greater capacity), CCO when you need a shorter butt but length doesn't matter, and an Officer when you need all measurements to be a bit smaller.

The CCO size is interesting me. When I get my RIA Rock CS (the 3.5" Officer sized gun), I may put the Officer sized frame together with my S&W 1911SC's Commander sized slide and see what I think. Though, before actually using it for HD or carry, I would probably buy a dedicated CCO model.

It seems to me, like you seem to suspect, and others have confirmed, that it would be a terrific CCW size. The butt is the hardest part to conceal, especially if you carry IWB and the barrel will go down the leg of your pants anyway.

**Aguila Blanca** · June 15, 2017, 06:27 AM

Doesn't S&W use a firing pin safety mechanism, similar to the old Swartz system? If so, the RIA won't have anything to operate it. You could test fit the S&W upper to the RIA receiver to see how you like the form factor, but you won't be able to shoot it.

chaim · June 15, 2017, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Doesn't S&W use a firing pin safety mechanism, similar to the old Swartz system? If so, the RIA won't have anything to operate it. You could test fit the S&W upper to the RIA receiver to see how you like the form factor, but you won't be able to shoot it.

You know, you're right. Darn you, giving me an excuse to buy another gun sooner...Hmm, buy a CCO outright, or get another Commander sized gun so I can do the Frankengun CCO and buy a CCO later?

Tactical Jackalope · June 15, 2017, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Doesn't S&W use a firing pin safety mechanism, similar to the old Swartz system?

Yup! I have the Smith and Wesson 1911SC E-Series. It has the Series 70 trigger. A titanium firing pin with a heavy firing pin spring.

Love it.

**Aguila Blanca** · June 15, 2017, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Constantine

Quote:

Doesn't S&W use a firing pin safety mechanism, similar to the old Swartz system?

Yup! I have the Smith and Wesson 1911SC E-Series. It has the Series 70 trigger. A titanium firing pin with a heavy firing pin spring. Love it.

Are you agreeing that the S&W 1911s do use a firing pin safety, or are you disagreeing and saying they don't?

Or is the E-series different? Are you saying that most of them do have a firing pin safety but the E-series don't?

**Aguila Blanca** · June 15, 2017, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaim

You know, you're right. Darn you, giving me an excuse to buy another gun sooner...Hmm, buy a CCO outright, or get another Commander sized gun so I can do the Frankengun CCO and buy a CCO later?

https://www.caspianarms.com/product-.../commander-425

Or call Armscor in Nevada and see if they'll sell you a mid-size ("MS") slide and barrel.

Tactical Jackalope · June 15, 2017, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Are you agreeing that the S&W 1911s do use a firing pin safety, or are you disagreeing and saying they don't?

Or is the E-series different? Are you saying that most of them do have a firing pin safety but the E-series don't?

Oops! lol, there is no firing pin safety on the Smith and Wesson 1911 I have.

dgludwig · June 15, 2017, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Is the loss of one round of ammo a big deal?

Most will make the seemingly "logical" argument that "if you can't get the job done with (insert lesser number) rounds, (insert greater number) rounds isn't going to make a difference". But if you should ever need another round to "get the job done", you will really need it. However, with that caveat out of the way, I agree with Aguila Blanca, the 6+1 vs 7+1 difference is probably not significant. Probably not...

Bart Noir · June 15, 2017, 06:22 PM

Let me point out that there are 7-round Officer's Model magazines available, just as there are 8-round Government Model magazines.

So you can carry 7 + 1 in a CCO, and in fact I have done that. The spare mag was then an 8-rounder with a special floor-plate that prevents over insertion in an Officer's frame.

Always carry a spare mag, because the Mas Ayoob saying is true: "A gun without a reload is only a temporary gun."

Or something like that. I think that is his saying.

Bart Noir

**Aguila Blanca** · June 15, 2017, 07:00 PM

Acknowledged, there are 7-round magazines for the Officers ACP size 1911s, and there are 8-round magazines for the full-size and Commander 1911s. I'm old enough to remember when those were new and the exception rather than the rule, and they were notoriously unreliable. My introduction to the M1911A1 was in the Army, in 1967. 7+1 was enough back then, and the GI magazines somehow always seemed to work, so I don't give much consideration to the newer, increased capacity magazines.

I guess that makes me a John Browning acolyte. After all, if Browning had come to the Ordnance Department in 1910 with a magazine holding 8 rounds, I don't think the Ordnance Department would have said, "That's very nice, Mr. Browning, but we'd be happier if you could reduce the magazine capacity by one round." Browning was, in many people's estimation, a firearms design genius. He determined that 7 rounds was what a 1911 could hold, so I'm inclined to accept that as "gospel."

Those who have faith in the newer magazines with an extra round of capacity, carry on. Pay no attention to that [old] man in the corner.

claydoctor · June 15, 2017, 07:47 PM

Can vouch for the Dan Wesson CCO. Very high quality, very reliable and extremely accurate. Trying to remember why I sold mine

KyJim · June 15, 2017, 11:42 PM

I have four CCO-sized pistols, three aluminum framed and one steel framed. My Les Baer Stinger has the steel frame. My Sig C3, Dan Wesson CCO, and Dan Wesson Valkyrie are all aluminum framed. I have carried them all, but most recently only the two Dan Wessons.

They do conceal a bit better due to the shortened grip length, IMO. I carry 6+1 in the gun but, for my extra carry mag, I carry a standard size (Govt) 7-round mag with the X-Grip attachment which prevents over-insertion.

Everything about carrying a concealed handgun is a compromise. Otherwise, we might all be carrying rifles and shotguns.

Nathan · June 18, 2017, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Are the CCO models really easier to conceal?

yes. They conceal quite well in a belt holster!

cw308 · June 19, 2017, 07:04 PM

1911 CCO is a good carry , I have the Colt New Agent 3" 45acp is my 95% of the time carry, the other 5% is a S&W Chief 2" 38 spl. 5 shot. As you can see I'm old school.

Tactical Jackalope · June 20, 2017, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Are the CCO models really easier to conceal?

Yes, they have the officer's size grip.

Hun Shooter · September 11, 2017, 01:22 PM

I am in the process of building a CCO. Started out with a Para Ordnance P12-45 I picked up at the local pawnshop. The previous owner installed bomar sight on it, pretty much ruining the slide. (what kind of idiot would put a target sight on a carry gun with 3.5" barrel)While researching on the internet I found out about the benefits of the CCO configuration and decided that if I had to replace the slide might as well go with the commander size. The Para frame is double stack, fits 12 rounds of .45acp in the magazine.

I bought the Para slide, barrel, basically the complete upper part on Ebay, matches the frame very well. I had to do no fitting at all. I am planning to replace the trigger and install an extended safety.

**OldMarksman** · September 11, 2017, 01:32 PM

Quote:

I’m curious if anyone owns one of the 1911 CCO models and if you find it actually easier to conceal than a standard grip size gun.

I have an STI Guardian, and yes, it is easier for me to conceal than a full size model..

Quote:

I carry a 1911 OWB and have no issue with the weight of the gun, but have noticed at times the butt seems to print a little.

Does it bother you?

Quote:

Is the loss of one round of ammo a big deal?

Mine holds 7+1. After a great deal of thought, I have concluded that that number is too small. I have switched to a Ruger American Compact 9mm--12+1.

**Aguila Blanca** · September 11, 2017, 08:21 PM

Hun Shooter, I notice that the slide you put on is an LDA slide, not a P13.45 slide. IIRC, the LDAs didn't have the cutout on the underside of the slide for the disconnector to pop up into. Has your slide been modified to work on a single action receiver?

Deaf Smith · September 11, 2017, 08:42 PM

Why a CCO for a $grand when you can just get a Glock 36?

Deaf

Hun Shooter · September 11, 2017, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Hun Shooter, I notice that the slide you put on is an LDA slide, not a P13.45 slide. IIRC, the LDAs didn't have the cutout on the underside of the slide for the disconnector to pop up into. Has your slide been modified to work on a single action receiver?

According to a former Para employee many Para slides from the factory were manufactured to fit double and single action frames. The slide I bought has been milled out by the seller for a disconnector.

I think a double stack Para officer's frame is the best candidate for a CCO conversion due to the ammo capacity.

shooter1911 · September 14, 2017, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deaf Smith

Why a CCO for a $grand when you can just get a Glock 36?

Deaf

Now that was really funny.

June 14, 2017, 11:54 AM	#1
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	1911 CCO I’m curious if anyone owns one of the 1911 CCO models and if you find it actually easier to conceal than a standard grip size gun. I carry a 1911 OWB and have no issue with the weight of the gun, but have noticed at times the butt seems to print a little. Are the CCO models really easier to conceal? Is the loss of one round of ammo a big deal? I’m familiar with two models right now. The Colt Wiley Clapp CCO which seems a little hard to find and the Dan Wesson CCO which is also in limited supply. Are there other brands to consider? Other than ammo capacity, availability and obviously cost any other issues to consider? __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

June 14, 2017, 01:08 PM	#3
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	True Officers size, with a 3.5" barrel, aren't really very common, anymore. Twenty years ago, standard "1911" barrel lengths were 5, 4.25, and 3.5, but now, it's 5, 4, 3. I've heard more than a few complaints about 3" guns being top-heavy when holstered, as so much of the gun's mass is riding high, outside the holster and above the belt, and the gun tends to flop out, away from the body. Having 4", or 4.25" tucked into the holster should ride much better. I've carried a Detonics Combat Master, as much shorter in the butt than an Officers, as an Officers is shorter than a Government Model, and it's a very compact gun, still holding 6+1, with a 3.5" barrel. __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

June 15, 2017, 06:22 PM	#13
Bart Noir Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2000 Location: Puget Sound, USA Posts: 2,215	Let me point out that there are 7-round Officer's Model magazines available, just as there are 8-round Government Model magazines. So you can carry 7 + 1 in a CCO, and in fact I have done that. The spare mag was then an 8-rounder with a special floor-plate that prevents over insertion in an Officer's frame. Always carry a spare mag, because the Mas Ayoob saying is true: "A gun without a reload is only a temporary gun." Or something like that. I think that is his saying. Bart Noir __________________ Be of good cheer and mindful of your gun muzzle!

September 11, 2017, 08:42 PM	#23
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	Why a CCO for a $grand when you can just get a Glock 36? Deaf __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

June 14, 2017, 12:03 PM	#2
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,459	The CCO has the grip length of an Officers ACP, so it's approximately 1/2-inch shorter than a Government Model or Commander 1911. Yes, it is much easier to conceal than a Commander. Not many manufacturers offer 1911s in the CCO configuration, but many offer them in the Officers size (3-1/2-inch barrel), which is still easier to conceal and to carry by virtue of the shorter slide. You're talking about the difference between 6+1 and 7+1, which isn't (IMHO) significant. Carry a spare magazine in your pocket.

June 14, 2017, 01:40 PM	#4
shaunpain Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 854	I own a Sig C3 CCO pattern pistol and it is far and away much easier to conceal than a full size frame. With modern 7 round officer magazines you don't give up too much. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

June 15, 2017, 05:40 AM	#5
chaim Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 2,095	Colt, Dan Wesson, SIG are all mentioned so far. Springfield Armory has one (more or less) in the Range Officer Compact. They don't have the true 4.25" Commander sized slide, it is a 4", but same concept. For a more budget option, Rock Island Armory has a CCO in their Rock Ultra series in their catalogue. However, they don't seem to be very available in the real world yet. Of course, you can always make one. Get a Commander and an Officer sized gun and you can make the CCO yourself by putting the Commander slide on the Officer frame. Three guns for the price of two will give you a bit more versatility: Commander when you can conceal it (1 round greater capacity), CCO when you need a shorter butt but length doesn't matter, and an Officer when you need all measurements to be a bit smaller. The CCO size is interesting me. When I get my RIA Rock CS (the 3.5" Officer sized gun), I may put the Officer sized frame together with my S&W 1911SC's Commander sized slide and see what I think. Though, before actually using it for HD or carry, I would probably buy a dedicated CCO model. It seems to me, like you seem to suspect, and others have confirmed, that it would be a terrific CCW size. The butt is the hardest part to conceal, especially if you carry IWB and the barrel will go down the leg of your pants anyway.

June 15, 2017, 06:27 AM	#6
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,459	Doesn't S&W use a firing pin safety mechanism, similar to the old Swartz system? If so, the RIA won't have anything to operate it. You could test fit the S&W upper to the RIA receiver to see how you like the form factor, but you won't be able to shoot it.

June 15, 2017, 07:00 PM	#14
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,459	Acknowledged, there are 7-round magazines for the Officers ACP size 1911s, and there are 8-round magazines for the full-size and Commander 1911s. I'm old enough to remember when those were new and the exception rather than the rule, and they were notoriously unreliable. My introduction to the M1911A1 was in the Army, in 1967. 7+1 was enough back then, and the GI magazines somehow always seemed to work, so I don't give much consideration to the newer, increased capacity magazines. I guess that makes me a John Browning acolyte. After all, if Browning had come to the Ordnance Department in 1910 with a magazine holding 8 rounds, I don't think the Ordnance Department would have said, "That's very nice, Mr. Browning, but we'd be happier if you could reduce the magazine capacity by one round." Browning was, in many people's estimation, a firearms design genius. He determined that 7 rounds was what a 1911 could hold, so I'm inclined to accept that as "gospel." Those who have faith in the newer magazines with an extra round of capacity, carry on. Pay no attention to that [old] man in the corner.

June 15, 2017, 07:47 PM	#15
claydoctor Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 450	Can vouch for the Dan Wesson CCO. Very high quality, very reliable and extremely accurate. Trying to remember why I sold mine

June 15, 2017, 11:42 PM	#16
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	I have four CCO-sized pistols, three aluminum framed and one steel framed. My Les Baer Stinger has the steel frame. My Sig C3, Dan Wesson CCO, and Dan Wesson Valkyrie are all aluminum framed. I have carried them all, but most recently only the two Dan Wessons. They do conceal a bit better due to the shortened grip length, IMO. I carry 6+1 in the gun but, for my extra carry mag, I carry a standard size (Govt) 7-round mag with the X-Grip attachment which prevents over-insertion. Everything about carrying a concealed handgun is a compromise. Otherwise, we might all be carrying rifles and shotguns.

June 19, 2017, 07:04 PM	#18
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	1911 CCO is a good carry , I have the Colt New Agent 3" 45acp is my 95% of the time carry, the other 5% is a S&W Chief 2" 38 spl. 5 shot. As you can see I'm old school.

September 11, 2017, 01:22 PM	#20
Hun Shooter Member Join Date: September 11, 2017 Location: Hillsboro, OR Posts: 23	I am in the process of building a CCO. Started out with a Para Ordnance P12-45 I picked up at the local pawnshop. The previous owner installed bomar sight on it, pretty much ruining the slide. (what kind of idiot would put a target sight on a carry gun with 3.5" barrel)While researching on the internet I found out about the benefits of the CCO configuration and decided that if I had to replace the slide might as well go with the commander size. The Para frame is double stack, fits 12 rounds of .45acp in the magazine. I bought the Para slide, barrel, basically the complete upper part on Ebay, matches the frame very well. I had to do no fitting at all. I am planning to replace the trigger and install an extended safety.

September 11, 2017, 08:21 PM	#22
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,459	Hun Shooter, I notice that the slide you put on is an LDA slide, not a P13.45 slide. IIRC, the LDAs didn't have the cutout on the underside of the slide for the disconnector to pop up into. Has your slide been modified to work on a single action receiver?