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Old October 14, 2017, 09:09 AM   #26
OldMarksman
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Asking about or discussing what counts as a sufficient level of preparedness -- as vague as that will always be -- has ....
You asked nothing about, nor did you attempt to discuss, what might constitute a sufficient level of preparedness.

You asked about "documented cases" and "concrete examples" regarding things that have happened.

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Maybe I can carry a bullwhip. No permit required ...
Are you proficient in the use of a bullwhip?

Are you knowledgeable about how to use one lawfully?

Do you think you would be able to employ one at the varying distances involved in defensive use of force encounters?

Could you handle more than one attacker?
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Old October 14, 2017, 10:34 AM   #27
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Would my choice to not carry, and my asking how often CCWers have to draw their weapons, mean that I support others' attempts to ban CCW entirely?
Your question was about carrying vs. capacity. The antigunner position is clearly that higher capacity magazines and firearms using such should be banned.

In these discussions, there is a constant set of opinions that such larger capacity items are not needed because of the 'average' stats or folks proclaiming if you can't do your job in six, you shouldn't carry a gun. Folks say it is unlikely that a civilian will ever need more.

Thus, the antigunner will see these as admissions that if you do buy into that someone should be able to have a gun for SD, certainly - the higher capacity guns and magazines are NOT needed. Since they are used in horrific crimes, it is not a handicap to the gun owner not to have them. Thus, ban them to reduce massacres. The Australian and UK experiences support that.

It's that simple. I agree that one might carry a J frame for convenience. However, when folks denounce those who carry more or deny their utility, you are supporting the reasonable position that such are not needed and they are too dangerous. Thus, ban them.

It's that simple. By now, folks should get this.
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Old October 14, 2017, 01:04 PM   #28
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I don't give a flip about round count debates, I consider them silly from a Joe citizen point of view. Sure, there is a statistic but I wont base my self defense initiatives on stat nuances. I will carry the largest capacity firearm that I can reasonable carry under the given circumstances. Sometimes its a 7 shot 380, other times its a 8 shot 9mm or 13 shot 9mm.

I am not likely to ever need a firearm to defend myself but I choose to afford myself that option "just in case". Any firefight I find myself thrust into may fall within the statistical norm regarding number of shots fired or it may not. I will not intentionally form a plan around the hopes that my fight happens to be statistically average. I simply plan and train for the "fight" . Any fight is the worst fight and stats don't really matter. If I cannot carry a high capacity firearm then I will simply run what I brung.

yep, I said high capacity. We all know what high capacity mean and what it is commonly referred to.
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Old October 14, 2017, 01:17 PM   #29
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In all likelihood, no gun will be enough for me for the rest of my time on earth.
That is true for persons who are nearing the ends of their lives.

The likelihood that a person will be attacked violently on any one day is minicule. Th eliklihooe that a person will be attacked violently in any one year is much higher, buy on a national basis, it is still very remote. But the likelihood, ago speaking on a national basis, that one will be attacked at least once during his or her lifetime is much higher--more than one our of two for a twelve year old. It is much a question of the length of that lifetime.


I am getting along in years. And I have not yet been violently attacked. Btu there have been occasions in which the idea that "no gun....was enough" was simply not true at all.

That's because I have been presented on more than one occasion with an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.

The mere presentation of the gun sufficed.

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So a 6-round gun gives me 6 more than the nothing I had.
That sentence does not follow from the one before.

Yes, six is better than five or two. That's not the question. The capacity question must be addressed on the basis of what will likely be needed when the incident occurs.

That's a very basic tenet of risk management.
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Old October 14, 2017, 01:30 PM   #30
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How many rounds a fight takes is exactly how many rounds it takes.

People have a habit of separating LE gunfights from civilian gunfights. The big difference is how the fight started.

The famous Miami FBI gunfight, who remembers how they got their guns and cars? Oh yea killing the rightful owners and taking them. The same people that will shoot it out with LE are the same people who will kill you without a shrug.
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Old October 14, 2017, 01:52 PM   #31
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How many rounds a fight takes is exactly how many rounds it takes.
Yes indeed.

And that has absolutely nothing do do with how likely the occurrence may have been believed to be before the fact.
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Old October 14, 2017, 02:51 PM   #32
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I have to agree. When folks say they carry more ammo or a bigger gun in a not nice neighborhood, the implicit assumption is that the fight in the nice area will be ' nice'.

How does that follow? Nice attackers fall more easily to gun fire? You shoot better in nice neighbors. Oh, you assume multiple and tougher attackers in 'bad' neighborhoods?

Guns don't jam in nice neighborhoods so you don't need an extra mag to deal with a bad jam?
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Old October 14, 2017, 02:52 PM   #33
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Asking how many rounds of ammunition (or guns) may be required by someone in the course of a successful defensive shooting incident is like asking how many punches or kicks someone may have to perform in order to successfully defend themselves against attack.

What would be preferable to someone defending themselves with "punches"? A series of multiple wild, unskilled swings and efforts? Or, a punch, or punches, performed with skill sufficient to the particular situation and set of circumstances? How to predict?!?

As a LE firearms trainer, I look for quality of skillset and performance of technique, as well as overall knowledge and mental preparation (mindset, if you will) ... not someone's perception of what might be a minimum "threshold" when it comes to "quantity".

How fast a motor vehicle may be able to be driven, and the capacity of it's gas tank, tells us little about how well it might be utilized in various situations, being driven by various drivers.

Lots of folks like to look for "answers" to knowledge/mental & skill questions in the form of "equipment", but equipment is only ever going to be equipment.

The same equipment in the hands of 2, or even 100, different people is going to tell us more about the abilities of the users, than the equipment.

What makes the discussion of "higher capacities" of ammunition seemingly so preferable to many folks is that the "answer" can come in a box. Something they can buy and handle.

Skills, mental acuity and focus don't come in a box.
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Old October 14, 2017, 02:56 PM   #34
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Time to start the related - Why training is unnecessary and I don't train - thread.

Good points.
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Old October 14, 2017, 03:13 PM   #35
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Listening to different folks expound their opinions about the importance of "magazine capacity", or ammunition capacity differences between revolvers and semiauto pistols, is all well and good. Folks, especially ardent enthusiasts, need their hobbies, after all.

However, once we take the "discussion" down-range and require people to perform, especially under increasingly demanding conditions for which they haven't been able to "prepare themselves" by first observing a course-of-fire being performed by someone else, and mentally "walking through it", so they know what to expect ... it's accurate, controlled holes on the intended threat targets that matter.

If higher capacity just means having to identify more misses, it sort of misses the point.

I'm certainly not saying that someone wanting to choose to carry an issued 17+1 9mm is "wrong" for choosing it over a 10+1 .45ACP, or even a 6-8rd revolver.

It's only when someone thinks they ought to offset or compensate for their lower skills by substituting the carrying of more ammunition for working to develop those known lower skills, that I start to wonder about their priorities.

I finished my regular career by carrying a 7+1 4513TSW .45ACP as an issued weapon for my plainclothes assignment. Some time after I'd been serving as a reserve, post-retirement, I traded that 7+1 .45 in for a 8+1 3913TSW 9mm. Why? I liked that single stack 9 (and already owned a 3913 and CS9), and found it nicely balanced, fast-handling and very accurate. (I later bought it when we were allowed to choose one former issued duty weapon for private purchase.)

I finished my reserve time by carrying an issued M&P 40 (15+1), because so many people wanted to choose either the M&P 45's/9's in the inventory, so when it came time for me to be issued one of the new guns, I told the guy responsible for issuing them to just give me whatever wasn't in high demand. It was just a duty weapon, after all. I could use all of them, when it came down to it (and I even owned a full-size M&P 45 of my own, and a M&P 40c). Let other guys and gals choose whatever tickled their fancy.
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Old October 14, 2017, 03:59 PM   #36
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It's only when someone thinks they ought to offset or compensate for their lower skills by substituting the carrying of more ammunition for working to develop those known lower skills, that I start to wonder about their priorities.
If only someone would come up with a simple way to visualize how skill (hit rate) and capacity relate to the probability of achieving "success" if one defines success as making a desired number of hits.
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Old October 14, 2017, 05:09 PM   #37
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I have taken Glenn's suggestion and started a new thread on preparedness.

You will see some of fastbolt's thoughts in it.
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Old October 15, 2017, 02:25 PM   #38
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So the earlier reply, about the man who had to fend off robberies at his store, was a pretty interesting set of facts.

I'm honestly not aware of how much data exists. I am aware that anytime someone's gun "goes off" cleaning it, it becomes a national headline advocating for gun control, but stories of citizens defending their homes and lives with firearms are never on the news unless they're "pro-gun" sources that specifically look for those sorts of things. So I don't know how much data is unknown, vs. unreported but still catalogued or available somewhere.

Obviously there's no right answer, because on any give day, any given thing can go wrong. The only answer that makes a reasonable rule of thumb to me is "carry as much as you realistically and practically can, routinely." or something roughly equivalent to that.

Asking whether data is available, so that I could use such data to inform my thinking about adequate preparedness, does not even by a leap in logic feed anti-gunner's thirst for bans on magazines or anything else. They cherry pick data and always will. If they banned all magazines entirely and then someone committed a crime with a single shot, they'd take that as evidence that citizens can't be trusted with single shot pistols. They're looking for a way to lead people into believing their stories. So they'll seize upon anything they can.

Data is data. If it exists, I want to know about it. That's all this thread was supposed to be about.

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Old October 15, 2017, 04:08 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by OhioGuy View Post
... High round counts for civilians

Does anyone know of any documented cases of a civilian (CCW in particular) needing to fire a "high" number of rounds in a defensive encounter? I probably would define "high" here as "more than would fit in a commonly carried CCW weapon."

So let's just say "more than six" since I'd have to start somewhere. ...

Data is data. If it exists, I want to know about it. That's all this thread was supposed to be about.
Since there's no compelling reason for such data regarding "civilian" shootings to be accumulated, let alone carefully examined and vetted for some specific purpose, nor any "agency" tasked with collecting and collating such "civilian data", you're probably going to have to be satisfied with whatever minimal anecdotal info may be collected from news sources, second-hand/hearsay experiences, etc. Different instructors may collect and track such things from within their own student base, but that's only going to be available from the perspective of the participants and what's been passed along to the instructors.

If you're trying to determine whether there's some critical "minimum threshold" of handgun ammunition capacity that might exist, and which might be useful to influence individual choice in the selection of a handgun dedicated to that of a personal defensive weapon, you're probably going to be spending many of your leisure hours chasing down myriad rabbit holes.

These sort of questions haven't been definitely addressed and resolved for LE when it comes to service & off-duty weapons, and that's a field where no small amount of documented info has been accumulated over the years. There are still strong opinions, backed up by experience and expertise, for duty and off-duty handguns with ammunition capacities ranging from "low" to "high" ... and the beat goes on.

The question of "How much is enough?" for Training, Practice, Ammunition, Capacity & Caliber have yet to provide definitive "answers" that satisfy everyone.

If you're looking for a consistent "toolset or equipment" answer to such a question, you're may put yourself at risk for trying to put a mistaken amount of emphasis on the "tool", instead of "you", in any unexpected threat situation.

Even back when it wasn't uncommon to find someone carrying a rabbit's foot key chain charm in their pocket, I don't recall anyone asking whether they would be "luckier" if they carried more of them at a time.
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Old October 15, 2017, 04:23 PM   #40
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If only someone would come up with a simple way to visualize how skill (hit rate) and capacity relate to the probability of achieving "success" if one defines success as making a desired number of hits.
Except all hits are not equal. A 380 ACP is not equal to a 357 Sig and a 9mm is not equal to a properly loaded 44 magnum.
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Old October 15, 2017, 07:08 PM   #41
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Except all hits are not equal. A 380 ACP is not equal to a 357 Sig and a 9mm is not equal to a properly loaded 44 magnum.
That is an accurate observation and it would also be relevant if, in my comment, "success" were defined as "having a desired terminal effect" instead of "making a desired number of hits".
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Old October 15, 2017, 09:31 PM   #42
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Post #39

Fastbolt nailed it.
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Old October 16, 2017, 12:46 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by OldMarksman View Post
Fastbolt nailed it.
While I appreciate the compliment, don't make too much of much of what I write. Most of it is merely the same offhand comments I've made to folks during training classes and range sessions.
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Old October 16, 2017, 01:16 PM   #44
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There is no correct answer to the original question.

You use deadly or lethal force until the assailant is deprived of delivering a life-threatening attack. That might be one bullet, or it might be a hundred bullets that depend on you.
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Old October 16, 2017, 06:39 PM   #45
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That is an accurate observation and it would also be relevant if, in my comment, "success" were defined as "having a desired terminal effect" instead of "making a desired number of hits".
That is the whole point!!!!! The number of hits are irrelevant if they do not stop the fight. Just assigning an arbitrary number of hits to end a fight is ludicrous.
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Old October 17, 2017, 11:25 PM   #46
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The number of hits are irrelevant if they do not stop the fight. Just assigning an arbitrary number of hits to end a fight is ludicrous.
Your statement is correct. Although I can see that you believe that you are disagreeing with me and also believe that your comment is relevant to mine, I assure you that neither belief is accurate.
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Old October 18, 2017, 04:43 PM   #47
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Just shoot until you need shoot no more.
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Old October 27, 2017, 06:57 PM   #48
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One bullet "can" stop one predator.

The other 16 in the gun are just in case it doesn't or he brought friends.

And if it saves just one life (mine) I'm happy.
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Old October 27, 2017, 09:23 PM   #49
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I carry two 18 round mags for my 226 and one in the pipe. (One in the gun and one spare)

I don't EVER want to wish I had more ammo in a self defense situation. If it only takes three rounds to stop the threat, I'm not gonna say: "I guess I didn't need those other 34 rounds."
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Old October 29, 2017, 11:34 PM   #50
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What happens when you shoot your assailant depends on many things and all such things may not happen in any particular case.

Three things I believe play out in most cases are:

- Where you shoot him.

- What you shoot him with.

- Who he is.

The round count will be whatever it is.
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