Hornady 223 case gauge?

[kmw1954]

A beginners question, all new to this.

As I am now beginning to reload bottleneck cases, the 223 in particular I was referred to getting a headspace gauge like the Lyman, Wilson or the Hornady. With this I watched the videos of the Lyman gauge and understand how it works and what it does. With this information I determined that I should have one of these only the Lyman and the Wilson were out of stock so I ordered a Hornady Case gauge.

This Hornady gauge does not appear to work the same nor do the same checks.

The Hornady gauge does not measure case go-no go length. instead the case mouth bottoms out inside the gauge and seems to show the length is too long as the case head will not go flush even though the case length is shorter than the max.

Am I doing something wrong ir is there a difference in the lyman and the Hornady gauges?

[txtaxman]

It sounds as if you are gauging a resized case that has not been sufficiently sized to fit in the gauge.

If that is so, try turning the sizing die down a small fraction of a turn, sizing the case again, and then gauging the case again. Repeat until the case has been resized enough to fit in the gauge.

Have you gauged an unfired factory round?

[kmw1954]

Yes I know it sonds like I am gauging an oversize case and that is just it, the length measures within spec at between 1.750" and 1.757" which is below the length of 1.760"

The 1.750" length cases will fit in the gauge flush while the 1.757" cases sit proud in the the gauge and because the case mouth is hitting the step inside the gauge I cannot determine if the case is too long and the length is preventing it from seating to the shoulder or if the headspace is off spec.

[totaldla]

Some confusion with terms here. "Headspace" and a case gauge have little to do with each other.

[ghbucky]

OP, to make clear what you are trying to measure, please provide a link to the Hornady gauge you are using and also to the other products you wanted to use.

[higgite]

Originally Posted by kmw1954

... the case mouth is hitting the step inside the gauge...

Have you measured case diameters, especially the neck, to see if it's sufficiently resized? I'm not sure what you're trying to describe, but it sounds like the case mouth is simply too large if it is hitting the step inside gauge that the shoulder is supposed to rest on. Any chance of posting a pic of the case in the gauge showing the problem?

[hounddawg]

case mouth is hitting the step inside the gauge

the case mouth should not be hitting anything inside the gage, the case should be sitting on the shoulder. What is the OD of the case neck ?

[kmw1954]

This is the Lyman gauge. The one I wanted but was out of stock everywhere.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018113885

This is th Hornady gauge I did purchase. Which I thought were the same.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018249683

Here is one of the videos I watched describing how to correctly use the gauge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y94yp2Haj8I

In the case of the Hornady gauge the case neck will not pass all the way thru and be exposed for length go/no go. the way the Lyman and Wilson gauges do.

As for pictures I am sorry but I do not have a camera that will focus that closely.

[ghbucky]

This is what you need to do:

It sounds as if you are gauging a resized case that has not been sufficiently sized to fit in the gauge.

If that is so, try turning the sizing die down a small fraction of a turn, sizing the case again, and then gauging the case again. Repeat until the case has been resized enough to fit in the gauge.

Have you gauged an unfired factory round?

Where you are confused is this

length measures within spec at between 1.750" and 1.757"

The case gauge checks to see if the shoulder of the case is set back the proper amount. Your sizing is not setting the shoulder back far enough, so the case cannot sit into the gauge.

Another thing to be aware of is that the gauge only checks that your sized case meets SAAMI specifications.

You should use your rifles chamber to determine whether your case is sized properly.

[edit] In order to properly measure your case length from the shoulder to the base, use this
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012743827?pid=479704

[Don Fischer]

You don't need a go no go gauge. You can adjust your FL die to fit a case to the chamber of your rifle even if it does have some excessive headspace. I think a big flaw for new comer's are people that try to turn reloading into some mystical science experiment, it is simply not that hard to do and a lot of the gauges and measuring tools talked about are simply not needed to make good ammunition.

[jpx2rk]

Check to see if that particular brass case will fit in the chamber and the bolt will close easily. Also check to see if a bullet will slip down into the neck of the case in question, this will tell you if the neck is sized properly for reloading.

If the case head/base will not sit flush with the base of the gauge, then you have not sized the brass properly to fit a maximum sized SAMMI chamber per the description of the gauge you purchased.

[hounddawg]

My first guess is you have not sized the case at all. The gage is working as intended and telling you the case has not been sized correctly. A .223 has a very slight taper of about .024 from case head to the top of the shoulder. If the case is not sized correctly the case will not fit into the gage fully. Adjust the die downward 1/8 th of a turn and resize the case. If it still does not go another 1/16 of a turn until it does

[kmw1954]

Thanks everyone. I understand what everyone is explaining, the confusion comes from the fact that this gauge seems to have a chamber that looks like a pistol barrel as the case mouth looks to hit this and then headspace from the case mouth and not the datum line on the shoulder. Or I am seeing something that isn't there.

But per everyone's advice I will turn the die down and recheck.

[higgite]

Drop a case into the gauge and hold it in with your finger. Then look into the top opening of the gauge. Can you see the rim of the case mouth or is it obscured by the "step" that you mentioned?

[kmw1954]

The top of the case mouth is obscured by the step. Which I thought was preventing the case from dropping all the way in.

The overall length of the gauge is just under 2". it's like 1.97" if I recall correctly.

[HiBC]

First,there will always be someone who does not fully understand the usefullness of the cartridge case bushing type gauge that represents a Max /Min chamber headspace length feature.
They will tell you "Just use your chamber" .
You are ahead of them. Don't look back. A bushing gauge is a good tool.

Now,the bushing gauges I have are Lyman and Wilson. I may even have a Dillon. I do not have a Hornady. Hornady is a good outfit,but sometimes they do things a little different,just to be different. Sometimes that is a problem.

The point is your gauge might be different than a Lyman or Wilson.

A Lyman or Wilson will be approximately the 1.760 case length.It may be a few thousandths off that,depending how they apply tolerances and I don't want to think that hard right now.
My point is with a Lyman or wilson gauge,if a case needs the neck trimmed it will protrude from the neck end of the gauge. If its flush or below,carry on.

In order to have this "Step" you refer to,the Hornady gauge would be significantly longer than 1.760 overall. Like maybe Hornady uses 1.875 long gauge blanks and does not face them to length. They rely on reamer depth. Maybe. Easy enough to check with your calipers.

Another thing about a Lyman or Wilson gauge,if you go to the neck end of the gauge,you will be able to easily enter the case neck into the hole . The hole diameter is large enough the neck can protrude through if your case is over length

I'm telling you all this because if Hornady did something different,which you can easily check, then all the advice we folk who use Lyman and Wilson gauges will give you will be confusing.

You might have to use a Hornady gauge by a different set of rules.

Its also possible you got a defective gauge. Unlikely,but possible.

Assuming there is the step,and the gauge length is longer than 1.800, to play by Hornady rules,you might have to resize,then verify your cases are shorter than 1.760 or whatever max acceptable case length is.

Only then can you check to see if the shoulder is sized to the correct length.

IF Hornady did it that way,IMO,they screwed up. You can learn how to make it work...trim your cases. But the gauge is more cumbersome to use for setting your dies for sizing length.

The primary purpose of the gauge (Wilson/Lyman) is to check that your sized case is within SAAMI spec (case head to shoulder) to match factory ammo and fit any SAAMI spec chamber.

Its a secondary bonus feature (Lyman/Wilson) that the gauge will also tell you "And BTW,time to trim" via protruding case neck..

IF the Hornady gauge has two hard stops in it,one for case mouth and one for the "headspace datum".....IMO, they screwed up by not isolating one variable.
To be useful for setting the sizing die relative to cartridge head clearance,the gauge CANNOT be a chamber "plunk" gauge. Nothing wrong with plunk gauges,but they are a completely different tool.

Once you find a die setting that gives optimum head clearance in your rifle,use your calipers,or better,a micrometer to measure over the gauge and the case head of a properly sized case,write that number down. You have a number to repeat to.
If you are clever,you might figure out how to use feeler gauges between the die body and shellholder to fine tune your die setting in thousandths rather than "a 16th turn"

Did the tool come with instructions? Have you called Hornady Customer Service?

[hounddawg]

Did the tool come with instructions? Have you called Hornady Customer Service?

best questions in this entire thread

[higgite]

What die are you using to resize the case? Brand, type and part number, if you have it.

[mehavey]

The top of the case mouth is obscured by the step.

The die should be a straight drop-through.
No exit "step" that would interfere with the neck protruding.

Can you send a pic, please?

[kmw1954]

HiBC, we are on the same page as you described it exactly how I understand it to work.Now I do not know if this is the best or most accurate tool to use but for now it is what I understand which is better than nothing or guessing.

Again this Hornady gauge is 1.942" long over-all. the hole for the neck end is .224" and a bullet just passes thru it. So yes the design is much different than the Lyman or Wilson.

mehavey, again I do not have a camera that will focus close enough to take a clear picture but I did include a link in post #8

There were no directions included and from past experience I will not waste my time trying to call Hornady CS.

Amazon now has the Lyman gauge in stock again so I may just return this one and order the Lyman.

[mehavey]

The Case Gauge needs only to be 1.75" long (at the bottom of the step) to fully contain the case.
Being 2/10ths of an inch more than that tells me the case neck was never envisioned to protrude.

Can you drop a commercial round into it and have it fully seat to bottom step?
If you can, it's your resized brass that's the problem.

[kmw1954]

Since my last post I was able to get back and readjust the die downward 1/4 turn and the case now drops all the way in. Also I can't explain why but the OAL length also shortened up about .005".

Again I am all new to this bottleneck stuff so I am seeing and experiencing things I have never encountered before. But that's what the forum is for right?

[mehavey]

The Press/die should be adjusted to a slight interference fit. (Let's call it a 1/16 turn to start past bottoming out on the shell-holder)
You should feel the press hit bottom, and then slightly "cam over" as the press arm goes all the way down and stretches the press juuuuust a scoch.

If you are Full-Length resizing (aka gas-gun), you should feel that same/slight "cam-over" when actually sizing a case.

BTW: what case lube are you using ?

[kmw1954]

The first batch was done a number of days ago and now I don't recall if there was a cam-over. After the readjustment today there is certainly a cam_over. The case lube I am using is Hornady Universal Lube and it feels like it is working well.

I think I am getting a handle on how this Hornady gauge works which is much different than what I have seen from the Lyman and Wilson gauges.

[Unclenick]

The usual way to make the determination is to run a lubed, unresized case up into the die all the way and see if there is a crack of light between the die mouth and the shell holder when you do that. If there is, despite setting the die up with contact between them, the force of pushing the case up into the die has stretched the press frame by the height of that crack and you need to turn the die down that much further so it can't happen and cut the sizing operation short.

I have one press that will cam-over, an old Lyman Spar-T. The others all have stops on them that cause the rise of the ram to end before the handle linkage camming action raises it to its potential maximum. Thus, it can't quite cam up to, much less over that peak point (top dead center of the camming action). The stops are there because, in the process of the press linkage camming over the peak ram height position and having the ram start to descend on the other side the stroke, it passes through a point of infinite mechanical advantage, which too easily gives a person the strength to break the press frame if they have turned a die in too far.

The way the Lyman press works is the handle stops just past that point so that if you push the handle all the way and seen the ram drop just a tiny little bit, then screw a die mouth into finger-tight contact with it, when you reverse the stroke the slight upward travel of the ram before the handle is back in its main range of swing is the right amount of extra die compression to get a case all the way in and still have its mouth make contact with the shell holder. So, on that press, you can set the sizing die up just by feel and without looking for a crack of light, and as long as you always push the handle through the cam-over point during resizing, you will fully resize.