HOT or NOT?

MINSH101 · May 5, 2017, 04:12 PM

Seeking opinions for a question:

Which .357 Magnum ammo is best for wild animals?

I live in the Pacific Northwest and want to get out and explore the land, God's country. Black bears and mountain lions have been occasionally spotted in the areas I'm interested in exploring.

Someone who's opinion about firearms I trust said that high velocity FMJ ammo, 125 grains, in a 4 inch or greater barrel is best for the four legged threats in the woods. I've always heard a heavy, hard cast bullet is best under those given circumstances. Something like 180 grains.

I admit, I handle the 125 grains round better than 180 grains, but am confident I could could put rounds on the target, if needed, with 180 grain bullets. My concern would be under penetration with the 125 grain round and their ability to damage vital organs.

Thoughts on the type of round best suited for deep woods walks?

NoSecondBest · May 5, 2017, 04:46 PM

Any 357mag bullet will make a bear change its mind. A .22lr will make a bear change its mind. Bear spray will make a bear change its mind. I've had dozens of close bear encounters over the years and I have yet to have one attack. Bear attacks are very, very rare in the lower 48 from black bears. That being said, I do carry a handgun when out woods walking. Mostly for two legged critters and miscreants. Pick what ever bullet you like using the best. You're not talking about which bullet is best for bear hunting, you're talking about a bullet that will make an overly curious bear go away. Mountain lions are supposed to be relatively easy to kill. I haven't killed any, but I know several people who have and they claimed they are pretty easy to dispatch. I don't think any .357mag bullet would be a bad choice. FWIW, I've killed over fifty deer with the 357mag and have lost none with it. It's an adequate cartridge for self defense and pretty decent for deer sized game. I'd have no qualms about hunting a black bear with it. Your biggest threat in the woods is still accidents and man.

jmr40 · May 5, 2017, 04:49 PM

125-158 gr HP for 2 legged predators. You could do OK on the heavier side of that for 4 legged predators that typically weigh about the same as adult male humans. Actually most black bear would also be in that category. A 300 lb black bear is larger than typical.

For anything larger, 180 or 200 gr hardcast. The hotter loads by Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap are expensive, but offer impressive ballistics.

Model12Win · May 5, 2017, 04:58 PM

125 SJHP 357Bs for varmints of the two legged variety.

180 grain hard casts from Buffalo Bore for the four legged.

CCI .38/.357 shots shells for the no legged.

Chainsaw. · May 5, 2017, 10:43 PM

Buffalo bore sells an "Outdoorsman" line, the 357 is a 180 grain flat point hard cast, just what the Doctor ordered for bad 4 legged critters. Make sure your gun van handle their pressures.

Tim Sunddies has a great write uo about hard cast ammo vs animals on their page too if ypu are so inclined.

Model12Win · May 6, 2017, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Make sure your gun van handle their pressures.

BB claims their .357 magnum ammo is safe in ALL .357 magnums.

ShootistPRS · May 6, 2017, 08:56 AM

Quote:

MINSH101 Seeking opinions for a question:

Which .357 Magnum ammo is best for wild animals?

Minsh,
In the last 50 years I have hiked and back-packed all over the Cascades and Olympics. I have never had to fire against an animal. Having said that I always carried the same ammo that I used in Hunter's Pistol Metallic Silhouette. I use the Sierra 140 grain bullet with H110 because the 140 grain is the best compromise between weight and velocity. It shoots pretty flat to 100 yards and has more than enough mass to knock the metal targets over with authority. I have never felt under gunned in any circumstance. I have confronted a few black bears and even saw a cougar once but they stayed at a distance or moved away with nothing more than standing my ground, yelling and raising my arms.

g.willikers · May 6, 2017, 09:09 AM

Which ever type of ammo you choose, pick one that is not only suited for the job, but also one you can shoot well - quickly and accurately and maybe more than just one.

9ballbilly · May 6, 2017, 09:16 AM

This is just my opinion, but it seems to me that the .357 magnum is underrated by a fair number of mostly younger shooters. Maybe because cartridges like the 10mm, .454 Casull, and .460 S&W as well as others came along and overshadowed it. After all, by the time those cartridges arrived the .357 didn't need an aggressive marketing campaign anymore.

I carried a .357magnum for many seasons in Northeast black bear country, doing nothing more than swapping my 125gr JHP's for 158gr JSP's at the trailhead. Still today, here in the deep south, I regularly carry a .357 into the field.

Personally, I don't feel any need for hard cast ammo short of going into big bear habitat.

T. O'Heir · May 6, 2017, 12:03 PM

"...confident I could..." Think you could recognise the threat, draw, aim and fire, accurately, in less than 6 seconds? That's how fast Yogi takes to cover 100 yards. Kitty comes from above and behind. Your chances are even less. And Kitty is regularly hunted with .22 Magnums.
Like ShootistPRS says, neither are the least bit interested in you. You smell of nothing but trouble to both of 'em.
Anyway, the best ammo is what you and your firearm can shoot best. Just don't expect it to make any difference. A jingle bell works as well to tell 'em you're there. They'll avoid you like the plague they think you are.
"...A 300 lb. black bear is larger than typical..." Not everywhere it isn't. Yogi can run 500 pounds, up here. Boar record is 816 pounds. Cindy goes to 300. Sow record is 454 pounds.

P5 Guy · May 6, 2017, 12:23 PM

Quote:

"Any 357mag bullet will make a bear change its mind. A .22lr will make a bear change its mind. Bear spray will make a bear change its mind."

Bear thinking "I'm going to go another way and leave that guy alone."
Guy sees bear and shoots be it pepper spray or 22.
Bear changes her mind "Dangnabbit now you made me mad, ITS ON LIKE DONKEYKONG!"

**44 AMP** · May 6, 2017, 01:35 PM

The common 125grJHP is essentially optimized for defense against humans. Cats are quick, but not tough, heavier slugs are better for bigger tougher animals, though I see no reason one needs a 180gr, the 158gr managed quite well for many decades and still will today.

buck460XVR · May 6, 2017, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Which ever type of ammo you choose, pick one that is not only suited for the job, but also one you can shoot well - quickly and accurately and maybe more than just one.

Quote:

The common 125grJHP is essentially optimized for defense against humans. Cats are quick, but not tough, heavier slugs are better for bigger tougher animals, though I see no reason one needs a 180gr, the 158gr managed quite well for many decades and still will today.

+1 to both of the above. For black bear and smaller, a 158gr JSP or Hardcast will do anything a 180 or heavier will do, as long as you can do your part and hit the target where it needs to be hit.

Lost Sheep · May 6, 2017, 03:08 PM

Shooting a wild animal is a great way to ruin a pleasant hike.

Shooting a bear "In Defense of Life or Property" (in Alaska) is legal, but brings with it a whole raft of responsibilities.

If you wound an animal, and are not incapacitated yourself, you are obliged to report the existence of a dangerous situation and morally bound to track the animal and dispatch it humanely.

If you kill the animal, you are obliged to report it, conserve the meat if possible (for donation to charity) and turn the hide and skull over to Fish & Game (after you have skinned the carcass).

All in all, a good reason to also carry bear spray and use it in preference to your firearm.

Lost Sheep

dajowi · May 6, 2017, 03:36 PM

"Mountain lions are supposed to be relatively easy to kill. I haven't killed any, but I know several people who have and they claimed they are pretty easy to dispatch."

Pretty easy to dispatch when they're far enough away that you can get a good shot. Not so much during a sneak attack by a 150 pound male gnawing on the back of your neck.

NoSecondBest · May 6, 2017, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Pretty easy to dispatch when they're far enough away that you can get a good shot. Not so much during a sneak attack by a 150 pound male gnawing on the back of your neck.

If they are stealthy enough to get you by the back of the neck, nothing in your holster is going to help at that point.

I know one person who's shot two with a shotgun while calling coyotes in Az.

DT Guy · May 7, 2017, 06:19 AM

All these 'it won't help, you'll never make the shot/see them coming' posts make me wonder:

You're going in to country with lions and tigers and bears (oh my!)...there have been a few, scattered attacks. When you set out, your guardian angel breaks the rules and whispers that you're scheduled for one of those attacks today...

Other than NOT going out, is there anyone here who WOULDN'T pack a gun? Who would just say, 'oh, hell, I'll never see them coming, and if I do, the shot will be far too hard for me to make'?

Personally, when I among things that *might* want to hurt me, I try to prepare to defend myself. Might work, might not, but I plan to try....

Larry

silvermane_1 · May 7, 2017, 06:50 AM

well op if the animals smell the gunpowder, usually they'll keep their distance.

HiBC · May 7, 2017, 07:27 AM

I don't feel like writing the whole story again,but I got a whole lot of posie sniffer BS advice about how I should not worry about packing iron in Alaska because all of the bears have had Walt Disney training and are quite civil.

Fortunately I ignored the advice and I had my Win 97 with me.

200 Yukon River miles from the nearest road my former spouse and I met an illiterate bear that did not read the right book.

We were asleep in my brand new Moss 4 lb tent which had never had food in it. Mr Bear decided to mash down on her with paws and take a bite of her butt.
I unzipped the tent door,he stuck his face in and I gently whacked him across the face with the shotgun.Probably not the best idea,but waking up to Mrs saying "Don't let the bear bite me again" I had not had coffee yet.He did retreat a bit.
But he was not leaving. Shots in the air did not make him flinch. Totally ignored.
He had his eyes on me and he was just ambling "casually" closer. There was a vacant focus on me that told me I was dinner.
We already had one hurt and we were far from home. I did not come there to shoot bear but this one was not leaving,so I killed him.
I have seen video found in the camera of people killed by black bear. Same motion.Same eyes..
Its true the head and hide must be turned in. This bear,nose to tail was 6 ft 6 before skinning.On the way back we gassed up at Tanana,then made it to the haul road bridge. Big hovercraft bridge there,and a trailer café.. 7 or 8 hours of washboard road later,we were back at Ft Wainright.
Here in Colorado,I have seen a lion from about 150 yds. He ignored me a while before walking away. From then on I packed a 5 shot snub 44 spl. I wsn't going hunting.
No,I don't want to shoot a lion.I have no interest in hunting them.

You listen to whoever you want. I go in the bushes armed

Deaf Smith · May 7, 2017, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Buffalo bore sells an "Outdoorsman" line, the 357 is a 180 grain flat point hard cast

That will do fine. Keeping alert is the most important thing with any critter.

Deaf

ShootistPRS · May 7, 2017, 06:33 PM

There was A bicycle rider attacked by a cougar in the Issaquah area a few years ago. The cat saw him speeding by and nailed him. Its natural for an animal to go after a fleeing target. Anyway, The guy defended himself with a pocket knife. He had to get the knife out of his pocket and stab blindly at the cat. The cat was found dead a few feet off the road. The man had some serious scratches but no life threatening wounds. This was a mature cougar with all its teeth and in prime condition. They really are not a threat to adult humans. Black bear are bigger but not as driven to go after a fast moving target. (you are not fast moving if you are running) They tend to respect size unless they are sick or hungry. I have had sows with cubs go around me to join up with her cubs and large males size me up before walking away. They really don't like to be around people MOST of the time. Bears that are brought up around some of the new "suburbs" are no longer afraid of people and have been known to become dominant in confrontations. I recommend being prepared but doubt you will run into trouble away from the burbs.

DT Guy · May 8, 2017, 11:27 AM

Hmmm.....

Quote:

here was A bicycle rider attacked by a cougar in the Issaquah area a few years ago. The cat saw him speeding by and nailed him

leads to...

Quote:

They really are not a threat to adult humans

I'm not sure the fact that one crazy-brave cyclist managed to fight off a cat makes them 'not a threat' to humans, especially if they're willing to attack us?

Larry

ShootistPRS · May 8, 2017, 01:24 PM

Quote:

I'm not sure the fact that one crazy-brave cyclist managed to fight off a cat makes them 'not a threat' to humans, especially if they're willing to attack us?

Larry

Well, since the cat was unable to cause any serious damage is evidence that they are not a big threat. That the cat was killed with a pocket knife is another example of how much of a threat they are.

Texas45 · May 8, 2017, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShootistPRS

Well, since the cat was unable to cause any serious damage is evidence that they are not a big threat. That the cat was killed with a pocket knife is another example of how much of a threat they are.

Obviously you have never encountered a mountian lion/cougar.
One lucky cyclist does not a mad cat make.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ShootistPRS · May 8, 2017, 01:51 PM

Actually, I have encountered a cougar. He was older and wiser than I and quickly vacated the area. The cougar's jaw has evolved to separate the spine in deer and smaller animals. That is how they hunt and their jaws are not a good fit on an adult human. If you just lay there and let them work for a while they will eventually kill you but if you fight they want to leave. They don't have a big advantage over you.
It seems apparent that you have little experience and believe that a cougar is a big threat to humans. Too many movies about killer cats?

May 5, 2017, 04:12 PM	#1
MINSH101 Member Join Date: September 8, 2015 Location: Washington State Posts: 63	HOT or NOT? Seeking opinions for a question: Which .357 Magnum ammo is best for wild animals? I live in the Pacific Northwest and want to get out and explore the land, God's country. Black bears and mountain lions have been occasionally spotted in the areas I'm interested in exploring. Someone who's opinion about firearms I trust said that high velocity FMJ ammo, 125 grains, in a 4 inch or greater barrel is best for the four legged threats in the woods. I've always heard a heavy, hard cast bullet is best under those given circumstances. Something like 180 grains. I admit, I handle the 125 grains round better than 180 grains, but am confident I could could put rounds on the target, if needed, with 180 grain bullets. My concern would be under penetration with the 125 grain round and their ability to damage vital organs. Thoughts on the type of round best suited for deep woods walks?

May 5, 2017, 04:49 PM	#3
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	125-158 gr HP for 2 legged predators. You could do OK on the heavier side of that for 4 legged predators that typically weigh about the same as adult male humans. Actually most black bear would also be in that category. A 300 lb black bear is larger than typical. For anything larger, 180 or 200 gr hardcast. The hotter loads by Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap are expensive, but offer impressive ballistics. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

May 5, 2017, 10:43 PM	#5
Chainsaw. Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2015 Location: Issaquah WA. Its a dry rain. Posts: 1,774	Buffalo bore sells an "Outdoorsman" line, the 357 is a 180 grain flat point hard cast, just what the Doctor ordered for bad 4 legged critters. Make sure your gun van handle their pressures. Tim Sunddies has a great write uo about hard cast ammo vs animals on their page too if ypu are so inclined. __________________ Just shoot the damn thing.

May 6, 2017, 09:09 AM	#8
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Which ever type of ammo you choose, pick one that is not only suited for the job, but also one you can shoot well - quickly and accurately and maybe more than just one. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

May 6, 2017, 09:16 AM	#9
9ballbilly Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: northeast Florida Posts: 611	This is just my opinion, but it seems to me that the .357 magnum is underrated by a fair number of mostly younger shooters. Maybe because cartridges like the 10mm, .454 Casull, and .460 S&W as well as others came along and overshadowed it. After all, by the time those cartridges arrived the .357 didn't need an aggressive marketing campaign anymore. I carried a .357magnum for many seasons in Northeast black bear country, doing nothing more than swapping my 125gr JHP's for 158gr JSP's at the trailhead. Still today, here in the deep south, I regularly carry a .357 into the field. Personally, I don't feel any need for hard cast ammo short of going into big bear habitat. __________________ may God eternally bless the American Rifleman--- as long as one stands, resolute, liberty shall not perish.

May 5, 2017, 04:46 PM	#2
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	Any 357mag bullet will make a bear change its mind. A .22lr will make a bear change its mind. Bear spray will make a bear change its mind. I've had dozens of close bear encounters over the years and I have yet to have one attack. Bear attacks are very, very rare in the lower 48 from black bears. That being said, I do carry a handgun when out woods walking. Mostly for two legged critters and miscreants. Pick what ever bullet you like using the best. You're not talking about which bullet is best for bear hunting, you're talking about a bullet that will make an overly curious bear go away. Mountain lions are supposed to be relatively easy to kill. I haven't killed any, but I know several people who have and they claimed they are pretty easy to dispatch. I don't think any .357mag bullet would be a bad choice. FWIW, I've killed over fifty deer with the 357mag and have lost none with it. It's an adequate cartridge for self defense and pretty decent for deer sized game. I'd have no qualms about hunting a black bear with it. Your biggest threat in the woods is still accidents and man.

May 5, 2017, 04:58 PM	#4
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	125 SJHP 357Bs for varmints of the two legged variety. 180 grain hard casts from Buffalo Bore for the four legged. CCI .38/.357 shots shells for the no legged.

May 6, 2017, 12:03 PM	#10
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...confident I could..." Think you could recognise the threat, draw, aim and fire, accurately, in less than 6 seconds? That's how fast Yogi takes to cover 100 yards. Kitty comes from above and behind. Your chances are even less. And Kitty is regularly hunted with .22 Magnums. Like ShootistPRS says, neither are the least bit interested in you. You smell of nothing but trouble to both of 'em. Anyway, the best ammo is what you and your firearm can shoot best. Just don't expect it to make any difference. A jingle bell works as well to tell 'em you're there. They'll avoid you like the plague they think you are. "...A 300 lb. black bear is larger than typical..." Not everywhere it isn't. Yogi can run 500 pounds, up here. Boar record is 816 pounds. Cindy goes to 300. Sow record is 454 pounds. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

May 6, 2017, 01:35 PM	#12
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	The common 125grJHP is essentially optimized for defense against humans. Cats are quick, but not tough, heavier slugs are better for bigger tougher animals, though I see no reason one needs a 180gr, the 158gr managed quite well for many decades and still will today. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 6, 2017, 03:08 PM	#14
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	Aftermath Shooting a wild animal is a great way to ruin a pleasant hike. Shooting a bear "In Defense of Life or Property" (in Alaska) is legal, but brings with it a whole raft of responsibilities. If you wound an animal, and are not incapacitated yourself, you are obliged to report the existence of a dangerous situation and morally bound to track the animal and dispatch it humanely. If you kill the animal, you are obliged to report it, conserve the meat if possible (for donation to charity) and turn the hide and skull over to Fish & Game (after you have skinned the carcass). All in all, a good reason to also carry bear spray and use it in preference to your firearm. Lost Sheep

May 6, 2017, 03:36 PM	#15
dajowi Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Posts: 1,196	"Mountain lions are supposed to be relatively easy to kill. I haven't killed any, but I know several people who have and they claimed they are pretty easy to dispatch." Pretty easy to dispatch when they're far enough away that you can get a good shot. Not so much during a sneak attack by a 150 pound male gnawing on the back of your neck.

May 7, 2017, 06:19 AM	#17
DT Guy Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 959	All these 'it won't help, you'll never make the shot/see them coming' posts make me wonder: You're going in to country with lions and tigers and bears (oh my!)...there have been a few, scattered attacks. When you set out, your guardian angel breaks the rules and whispers that you're scheduled for one of those attacks today... Other than NOT going out, is there anyone here who WOULDN'T pack a gun? Who would just say, 'oh, hell, I'll never see them coming, and if I do, the shot will be far too hard for me to make'? Personally, when I among things that might want to hurt me, I try to prepare to defend myself. Might work, might not, but I plan to try.... Larry __________________ He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast. Government, Anarchy and Chaos

May 7, 2017, 06:50 AM	#18
silvermane_1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2011 Location: Burien,WA Posts: 897	well op if the animals smell the gunpowder, usually they'll keep their distance. __________________ Rugers:SR1911 CMD,MK 3 .22lr 6",Sec. Six '76 liberty .357 4",SRH .480 Ruger 7.5",Mini-14 188 5.56/.233 18.5", Marlins: 795 .22lr 16.5",30aw 30-30 20",Mossberg:Mav. 88 Tact. 12 ga, 18.5",ATR 100 .270 Win. 22",S&W:SW9VE 9mm 4",Springfield:XD .357sig 4", AKs:CAI PSL-54C, WASR 10/63, WW74,SLR-106c

May 7, 2017, 07:27 AM	#19
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	I don't feel like writing the whole story again,but I got a whole lot of posie sniffer BS advice about how I should not worry about packing iron in Alaska because all of the bears have had Walt Disney training and are quite civil. Fortunately I ignored the advice and I had my Win 97 with me. 200 Yukon River miles from the nearest road my former spouse and I met an illiterate bear that did not read the right book. We were asleep in my brand new Moss 4 lb tent which had never had food in it. Mr Bear decided to mash down on her with paws and take a bite of her butt. I unzipped the tent door,he stuck his face in and I gently whacked him across the face with the shotgun.Probably not the best idea,but waking up to Mrs saying "Don't let the bear bite me again" I had not had coffee yet.He did retreat a bit. But he was not leaving. Shots in the air did not make him flinch. Totally ignored. He had his eyes on me and he was just ambling "casually" closer. There was a vacant focus on me that told me I was dinner. We already had one hurt and we were far from home. I did not come there to shoot bear but this one was not leaving,so I killed him. I have seen video found in the camera of people killed by black bear. Same motion.Same eyes.. Its true the head and hide must be turned in. This bear,nose to tail was 6 ft 6 before skinning.On the way back we gassed up at Tanana,then made it to the haul road bridge. Big hovercraft bridge there,and a trailer café.. 7 or 8 hours of washboard road later,we were back at Ft Wainright. Here in Colorado,I have seen a lion from about 150 yds. He ignored me a while before walking away. From then on I packed a 5 shot snub 44 spl. I wsn't going hunting. No,I don't want to shoot a lion.I have no interest in hunting them. You listen to whoever you want. I go in the bushes armed Last edited by HiBC; May 7, 2017 at 07:35 AM.

May 7, 2017, 06:33 PM	#21
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	There was A bicycle rider attacked by a cougar in the Issaquah area a few years ago. The cat saw him speeding by and nailed him. Its natural for an animal to go after a fleeing target. Anyway, The guy defended himself with a pocket knife. He had to get the knife out of his pocket and stab blindly at the cat. The cat was found dead a few feet off the road. The man had some serious scratches but no life threatening wounds. This was a mature cougar with all its teeth and in prime condition. They really are not a threat to adult humans. Black bear are bigger but not as driven to go after a fast moving target. (you are not fast moving if you are running) They tend to respect size unless they are sick or hungry. I have had sows with cubs go around me to join up with her cubs and large males size me up before walking away. They really don't like to be around people MOST of the time. Bears that are brought up around some of the new "suburbs" are no longer afraid of people and have been known to become dominant in confrontations. I recommend being prepared but doubt you will run into trouble away from the burbs.

May 8, 2017, 01:51 PM	#25
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	Actually, I have encountered a cougar. He was older and wiser than I and quickly vacated the area. The cougar's jaw has evolved to separate the spine in deer and smaller animals. That is how they hunt and their jaws are not a good fit on an adult human. If you just lay there and let them work for a while they will eventually kill you but if you fight they want to leave. They don't have a big advantage over you. It seems apparent that you have little experience and believe that a cougar is a big threat to humans. Too many movies about killer cats?