Need help with identification of rifle

[Samurai1981]

I have a bolt action .308 rifle and can't figure out what type it is. It's set in a Bishop stock. I took the action out of the stock and see that there is a serial number and a single proof mark. Does anyone recognize this proof mark? Those are the ONLY marks I see on the entire rifle with the exception of 308 stamped on the barrel. It also has a very odd safety, its at the rear of the action and you have to push it in while turning clockwise to engage.


This is almost exactly what the proof mark looks like.....

[emcon5]

Looks like some I have seen on Arisakas.

http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/japanese_markings.html

[TheSILENTtype]

Hey, this is the Krupp symbol.

They are usually stamped in the upper corners on the <-- of the Breech.

[Samurai1981]

Since theres no manufactures mark on anything is it possible that someone changed both the stock and the barrel? I did take a look at Krupp guns and Arisakas, and it looks more like the Arisaka but theres no Japanese markings at all which makes me lean more towards Krupp, especially since the symbol matches.

[TheSILENTtype]

Trust me , it's a Krupp.

This firearm was developed by the famous Krupp firm in Essen in 1918. The three interlocking rings wich served as the Krupp symbol are stamped in the upper corners on the rear of the breech.
The .308 in this production was a rugged and robust field gun, with a horizontal sliding breech very similar to the American counterpart (which served with the Marine Corps from before World War II ).

If you upload a picture of the gun itself, I will be able to tell you more!

[Samurai1981]

I definitely will when I get home to it. But would the fact that is has a Bishop stock on it decrease the value of what I have? Believe it or not this rifle was given to me almost 15 yrs ago and has been my primary hunting rifle until I bought a new one last year. A friend was interested in buying it so I was looking into what I had.

[TheSILENTtype]

original have fetched 700 private sale if the right buyer comes along.

would have to see yours to know more. will await pictures

[Samurai1981]

another question.....would the original barrel have 308 stamped on it? I thought most other countries go by 7.62...

[TheSILENTtype]

That's a valid point in some regard. SOME other countries tend to stick to their 7.62mm depending on the use of the firearm ..

however, keeping in mind ; CAL. is not a unit of measure, whereas MM is.

So .308 = .308

and 7.62 - 7.62 in theory.

However, I can't say with much confidence the which way the barrel was stamped when manufactured.. that's a little deeper than my knowledge runs.

[Samurai1981]

Ok, well either way I'll try to snap some good detailed pics and get them up tonight.

[TheSILENTtype]

After re-reading this thread carefully, and tossing in some research.. I have decided to retract my for sureness that it is a Krupp until I see a few snapshots.

I will however rephrase my sureity in this form ,

" Whatever you found that logo on, is a Krupp accessory without question "
Same goes for accompanied research. However, as far as internal and external parts ; anything is possible.

[Scorch]

Your rifle is most likely one of the millions of sporterized military rifles made from military surplus rifles since the 1940s. 308 Winchester is a commercial cartridge, not a military one. Pictures will help immensely.

[Samurai1981]

Ok, after more research it is most definitely Japanese. I removed the scope rail and saw Japanese symbols saying it is a type 38 and a third symbol that was drilled into for the rail and I can't make it out. Also, what we thought was the Krupp symbol is actually the arsenal marking after the serial number which is consistent with a Japanese rifle.

Basically what I can see is that it is a type 38, made at the Koishikawa (Tokyo) arsenal sometime between 1906 and 1935. The serial number is 886427.

Type Arsenal/Subcontractor Series Serial number range Dates
38 Koishikawa (Tokyo) none 0-2,029,000 1906-ca.1935

BUT, the barrel is not consistent with their description so it must have been replaced at some point.

2012-09-14_01-15-07_209.jpg

2012-09-14_01-14-36_147.jpg

[Samurai1981]

Views of the action itself.....

2012-09-14_01-15-36_616.jpg

2012-09-14_01-15-24_295.jpg

[TheSILENTtype]

customized .308 with a Arisaka action. However, that symbol is not that or Arisaka, but is that of Krupp. Milsurp forsure. Good on the ol' pro.

[Samurai1981]

This link that emcon5 provided helped out A LOT! At least I know where the action came from. I can also tell that this was most likely taken off the field and not exported because the chrysanthemum on the top of the action is still in tact (besides obvious wear) but is not over stamped.

http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/japanese_markings.html

[TheSILENTtype]

be sure to let me know if you learn anything else cool about this rifle, seems to have a cool and lengthy history behind it.

now that you can see ALL the markings the story shall unfold!

[Samurai1981]

I wish I could trace it back to the person who did all the work to it! So I could beat them over the head and ask why in the world they would screw up history!

[TheSILENTtype]

dont be too harsh...... after all you have the Heinz57 of guns, there. Thank to that fella. ha ha ha

[Scorch]

wish I could trace it back to the person who did all the work to it! So I could beat them over the head and ask why in the world they would screw up history!

The gun was used as the basis for a build because they were cheap! In 1975 (about as ar back as my involvement with guns goes), you could buy a good K98k for $50 or so, Arisakas were about $30. In 1981, when I started gunsmithing, you could buy packing crates of 98s for $100 (4 per crate packed by the arsenals in 1945), and we bought them, cleaned and sold the guns just so we could have the crates. Just to give some perspective, in 1981 a Model 70 cost about $375, a Rem 700 about the same, a Ruger 77 was about $300, so a $50 rifle you could strip and use the action was pretty cool. We would screw in a good barrel ($125 for a Douglas or Shilen, some others were cheaper), drill and tap it, and put it in a good stock ($30 for one with some figure in the butt area, for $100 you could get an exhibition grade stock), a few hours inletting it, shape, sand, finish, blue the metal, and you had a great looking custom rifle and you were not upside down in it right from the get go. Not any cheaper than a factory rifle, but it would shoot a lot better and looked different, so we built a lot of them. We weren't screwing up history, the USA won the war, the USA wrote the story. The tools of war never change, they will continue to fascinate people, but they were just old guns, some of which you could not hardly find ammo for. We fixed them up and used them. Get over it.

[Hawg]

they were just old guns, some of which you could not hardly find ammo for. We fixed them up and used them. Get over it.
__________________

+1. Sides if it hadn't been sported you probably wouldn't even have it.

[Mike Irwin]

If it was made by Krupp, that means one thing...

The .308 barrel is either a gunsmith rebore OR a gunsmith replacement.

The .308 Winchester came out in the early to mid 1950s.

I'm pretty sure that Krupp was not making smallarms after WW II.



Oh, skip that. That's a modified Arisaka. Has absolutely NOTHING to do wtih Krupp.

[Samurai1981]

We weren't screwing up history, the USA won the war, the USA wrote the story. The tools of war never change, they will continue to fascinate people, but they were just old guns, some of which you could not hardly find ammo for. We fixed them up and used them. Get over it.

OK there, it was only a joke...

[44 AMP]

I wish I could trace it back to the person who did all the work to it! So I could beat them over the head and ask why in the world they would screw up history!

I would agree with that if someone were going to modify a pristine (or good condition) milsurp, TODAY. 40-60 years ago, it was a totally different story. The guns were cheap, common as dirt, and in the case of the Jap ones, really difficult to find ammo for.

I have sporterized Arisakas, Mausers, Springfields, even a sporterized Norwegian Krag (6.5x55mm). That one is a real shame, today. But 70 or 80+ some years ago when it was done, they made a really nice rifle.

The three intelocking rings is a Krupp symbol. Also a Japanese arsenal mark (Nagoya, I think), and was also used by a beer company back in the 60s, although I no longer recall which one.

[Mike Irwin]

"I wish I could trace it back to the person who did all the work to it! So I could beat them over the head and ask why in the world they would screw up history!"

Funny thing about that sentiment...

Today's history is yesterday's scrap metal.

If we were to look at everything as something that's going to be historic some day, we'd all be on the show Hoarders.