Martial arts tailored to modern carry?

[BlackFeather]

Originally Posted by agtman

(1) 99.9% of fights in the real world hit the ground with no clear resolution ... 'til you get there.

Therefore, ground fighting/grappling skills are super critical, whether or not, while standing, you can slug away like Joe Frazier.

I'm sorry, I must disagree.

If you train to not go to the ground, and aren't "fighting" your opponent, you shouldn't touch the ground at all.

[irish52084]

BlackFeather
If you train to not go to the ground, and aren't "fighting" your opponent, you shouldn't touch the ground at all.

I'm a little confused by your response, can you clarify for me?

I think grappling skills are paramount in self defense. A limited amount of grappling skills is a huge advantage against someone with no grappling skills. It's much easier to learn how to box than it is to grapple. I know, I'm pretty terrible at both.

[MLeake]

I'm pretty sure that he means, it isn't that hard to slip the initial takedown attempt if you know how, and if you are carrying, AND CAN JUSTIFY USING A FIREARM (BIG IF), then you don't really need to know more than how to avoid the initial takedown.

[Ambishot]

Hey Irish,

I think what you're looking for would be more military-related applications. For civilian martial arts programs, the most relevant ''art'' that follows what you're looking for would be Krav Maga. (as some ppl mentioned earlier) KM utilizes gun disarming techniques from multiple scenarios.

In hapkido, we train for stick, cane, rope and knife defense/disarmament. But those are about it...at least with the school that I'm with. I've also done some self defense with my work/local LE and that was geared towards gun disarmament, but the moves were all essentially Krav Maga moves.

[zombieslayer]

Krav is the pinnacle of close quarters training imo. For the average joe a trip to the local judo club would really do you some good.

[BlackFeather]

First off, most Krav Maga is just watered down for civilians and making money off of them. Some of it, very little, will be real. My opinion.

Irish, my point is that while grappling skills are useful, it's far less important than knowing how to stay away from that situation. Ground fighting and grappling get dirty fast, and you never want to be in that situation when things go wrong. This is usually when a knife gets brought into play.

Grappling skills that allow you to get away, are different. I just don't understand why people think knowing how to break someones arm while wrestling on the ground is going to help them.

[zombieslayer]

"Grappling skills that allow you to get away, are different. I just don't understand why people think knowing how to break someones arm while wrestling on the ground is going to help them."

Well... If you're fighting an attacker/opponent and you dont have your weapon, wouldnt breaking his arm be a great advantage? If im fighting anyone Im going to inflict as much trauma as physically possible. Eyes can be gouged, groins crushed, bones broken, etc. All great ways of causing your attacker to rethink his actions. Defending ones self is ones own responsibility. How much time and effort goes into training and physical fitness is up to the individual. Breaking an arm or even leg isnt any different than shooting. Youre trying to stop a deadly or dangerous threat or action.

[irish52084]

I think you might have a misunderstanding of grappling, ground fighting is only a fraction of grappling. The main goal of grappling is control of your opponent and the situation, there's a lot more to grappling than just arm bars and triangles.

Grappling takes place on the feet as well as the ground and while knowing how to stay on your feet is part of the equation, so is controlling someone on the feet with grappling. Clinching is a huge part of grappling and striking, but the approaches are different. Grappling is more important than striking when carrying a weapon, at least in my mind.

I'm slow and a terrible boxer, but it's easier to slip a punch or avoid it doing any real damage than it is to prevent a take down. It's tough to strike an opponent while he has control over your balance, it's tough to draw or employ a weapon if you're off balance or being thrown head first into the sidewalk.

[TopherC]

The Modern Army Combatives Program (MACP) has some weapons disarming/use stuff in the Level III training, I think. The Army is usually pretty good at putting their FMs online, and you can probably find some Youtube videos on it too.

- Chris

[zombieslayer]

No Irish youre the one who doesnt understand. IM NOT ONE OF THOSE MEATHEAD UFC FANS IN A TAPOUT T-SHIRT. Im just really believe judo and other grappling arts are lacking in peoples training. Many many hours of my life have been spent on situational awareness and takedown defense. I actually have real world experience with these as well.
But if youre fighting for your life and think youre going to reaaon every move slowly in your head youre going to lose, most likely. Muscle memory and balance are key. Judo skills make for a pretty quick fight. And most of the skills Ive practiced are exactly what your last paragraph talked about.
My question to you is- have you ever visited a judo club or even a jiu-jitsu dojo? Not one of these newfangled mma mall ninja places. A real dojo.
Takedown avoidance and keeping your opponent off balance are the basic things you mostly practice in judo. And yes- you do learn throws,falls, and groundwork. But when you take the sport part of jufo out of it, there are lots of "dirty" methods of self defense involved. Its all about being smaller or weaker than your adversary and using physics and technique to defeat them. Going to the ground would mean the fight is being controlled by the other guy. But knowing that you can fight a larger stronger man from the bottom and still defend youself isnt a bad thing. Its not ideal, no, but fighting isnt ever going to be ideal anyhow.
If its fighting for my life, bones will be broken, eyes gouged, genitals destroyed, whatever tools I have to use will be employed to completely ruin the attackers chances of hurting me or whoever.
Of course, I carry a gun all the time, but being quick to respond to physical threats includes all forms of combat. Ive used judo for self defense WAY WAY more than a gun.

[redstategunnut]

Those of you who think in your next fight you are going to "slip a takedown", draw your gun and end the fight and therefore have no need to know what to do when the fight goes hands on and to the ground do not know what you do not know. Good luck with that.

[irish52084]

zombieslayer: It seems like we agree on a lot of things when it comes to the use of grappling in self defense. As for being in a judo or jiu-jitsu school/dojo/school, I've been training for years at a very good submission grappling/jiu-jitsu school. Before that I've trained muay thai, boxing, judo, aikido and wrestling. I know what it's like to move resisting bodies around.

If it's too my advantage to take the fight to the ground, I want the ability to make that happen. Fighting off your back is bad in a self defense scenario 75% of the time. However, making someone else fight off their back is a good thing. Being able to dictate the where the fighting occurs is a huge advantage. Like we both seem to agree, control is the key too grappling.

[zombieslayer]

Absolutely sir.

[BlackFeather]

Originally Posted by redstategunnut

Those of you who think in your next fight you are going to "slip a takedown", draw your gun and end the fight and therefore have no need to know what to do when the fight goes hands on and to the ground do not know what you do not know. Good luck with that.

I never said that should be the case, and neither did anyone else. My point is that you shouldn't want to fight on the ground. Sure, if you get there you should know how to defend yourself but you shouldn't WANT to be there. You shouldn't take it there yourself. If you are fighting on the ground and have the training to do so, why wouldn't you just do what you need to get up into a safer position? And yeah, anyone doing what you said would be drawing a gun on someone who hasn't posed a lethal threat.

It seems people don't understand me when I say it's better to get out of the situation as best as possible without spending your time tied up with an opponent who may have friends, a knife, or for all you know MMA training.

[BlackFeather]

Originally Posted by zombieslayer

Well... If you're fighting an attacker/opponent and you dont have your weapon, wouldnt breaking his arm be a great advantage? If im fighting anyone Im going to inflict as much trauma as physically possible. Eyes can be gouged, groins crushed, bones broken, etc. All great ways of causing your attacker to rethink his actions. Defending ones self is ones own responsibility. How much time and effort goes into training and physical fitness is up to the individual. Breaking an arm or even leg isnt any different than shooting. Youre trying to stop a deadly or dangerous threat or action.

While I can agree with causing the most trauma as possible, breaking an arm may happen slower than some expect. Yes, the martial arts teach you the best ways to do so, and often the fastest, but something like that shouldn't be planned. You focus on that and he may turn into you with a knife. If you end up with the option, and can do so effectively, I don't see a problem with it, but I would rather be on my feet.

[zombieslayer]

I knew we were all more or less on the same page.

[redstategunnut]

I just don't understand why people think knowing how to break someones arm while wrestling on the ground is going to help them.

Um, because if the fight you are in goes to the ground, it does help to know what to do once you are there.

Make no mistake: if you are on the ground in a fight, a lot of better options have been missed/passed over/denied. But the fight is what the fight is. If I have to break a man's arm or choke him out to win the fight that I'm in, then that is what I'm going to do and I am glad that I know how to do it.

[zombieslayer]

Fwiw you really dont have to be on the ground to break an arm.

[BlackFeather]

Very good points. Though I believe this thread has derived a bit much.

Yeah, I watched a friend break a guys arm over his shoulder once, which I felt bad about later because he didn't quite deserve that much and I know my friend did it on instinct and not fully intending to break it.

[irish52084]

I'm finding a lot of weapon retention techniques that seem ok, but I still don't see anyone truly putting it all together with citizen carry in mind. Maybe I'll just have to talk to some friends and coaches to see if they have suggestions.

[BlackFeather]

Any weapon retention techniques I have tried to come up with go off of fairly simple concepts. But mostly have open carry in mind.

Never let their hands go up when the reach for your weapon. In other words, push their hands down, not up to break the grip. Makes sense.

Their left hand can grab the gun better from the front, the right hand grabs better from the back, plan for both one and two handed grab defenses that don't require a lot of specifics and work for both left and right hand grabs from behind or front.

If you have a knife, and can access it quickly, use it. Most of what I practice for retention uses a knife. If you notice, some videos show a lot of struggle, and a lot of pushing and pulling, I see this and have to wonder how often the opponent gets the gun and the defender gets a hold of the barrel as it comes out of the holster. I don't know, because I'm fairly new at this part.

[irish52084]

I'm thinking of a few things that might enhance some of the retention techniques I've seen. I see opportunities for some trips and use of balance, beyond what I have seen so far.

I haven't seen every retention technique, but I'm not finding much retention work concealed carry. I see a ton of stuff tailored to police.

[Deaf Smith]

Martial arts tailored to modern carry?

Personally I'd train in both a good marital art AND combat shooting. Make them your hobbies. Then over time you will integrate them yourself.

Take Krav Maga and maybe a good Hapkido school and then IDPA and IPSC for hobbies as well as a few good shooting schools.

Then over time you will see what matters.

Deaf

[Tengu01]

Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is always worth a look .

[youngunz4life]

http://www.kptv.com/story/15329628/p...ome?hpt=ju_bn6