Sometimes one gun isn't enough

WIN71 · September 2, 2011, 07:12 PM

Here's an article on a recent shooting. It shows just how difficult it is to stop an aggressor influenced by drugs and alcohol.

http://www.redding.com/news/2011/sep...hooting-wante/

Slopemeno · September 2, 2011, 08:39 PM

...Or maybe how hard it is to get an a-zone hit when the target doesn't cooperate much.

Wow- .030 BAL. I couldn't follow a thought much less run from the cops at that state.

kgpcr · September 5, 2011, 09:28 AM

I read many of these articles and it sounds like he was made out of steel. Where did the 16 rounds hit him? what was he hit with? all i can tell you is i bet none of them were in the boiler room or none of the first rounds were in the boiler room. you start blowing big holes in lungs and hearts and they will go down

MLeake · September 5, 2011, 09:48 AM

kgpcr, it would certainly be nice to think so...

It would also certainly be nice to think we'd all score those A-Zone hits under pressure.

But all you have to look up is "Jared Reston" to see that things don't always work out that way.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n56222291/

Reston is a deputy in Jacksonville, FL. In 2008, he was involved in a shootout while working an off-duty security job at a mall. An 18yo shoplifter he had chased from the mall to a retention pond across the road turned on him, and hit him a sledgehammer blow. Reston thought so, at first, anyway - thinking the kid had quite a punch. Turned out it wasn't a punch, it was a .45acp FMJ round from a Glock 21, straight to the chin.

Bullet deflected, damaging Reston's jaw, and exiting his neck without hitting a major artery. But it stunned Reston, and he fell down the embankment, toward the retention pond, ending up on his back, head down toward the water. He managed to draw and return fire (I think he also had a G21; I know he had a .45).

Both shooters ended up emptying 14 rounds. Reston was hit six times. Luckily, his vest stopped three of those rounds. Reston scored seven hits, though the last three were from point blank. He was shooting from his back, one-handed, as his support arm was damaged or broken by one of the shooter's early hits, as Reston was falling down the embankment.

Mas Ayoob knows Reston, and has shot with him. Mas says Reston is a very good shot. (I think he's both on Jacksonville SWAT, and one of their firearms instructors.) Everybody says Reston did a great job, especially after taking the initial hit to the face, and I agree. But if you look at it another way, given the circumstances of the attack, a highly trained SWAT officer and pistol competitor only scored 50% hits - and he did very well.

This is one of the reasons I get so tired of the "If you need more than 5 or 6 rounds" argument.

In my last several rounds of military recurrent qualification, I have missed one handgun shot. One. And that was from prone, with helmet and goggles, when the helmet shifted and slammed the goggles into the bridge of my nose as I was pulling the trigger. But I think there are very good odds that I could miss 50% in a gunfight situation, especially if I had taken the first hit.

YMMV.

irish52084 · September 5, 2011, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Both shooters ended up emptying 14 rounds. Reston was hit six times. Luckily, his vest stopped three of those rounds. Reston scored seven hits, though the last three were from point blank. He was shooting from his back, one-handed, as his support arm was damaged or broken by one of the shooter's early hits, as Reston was falling down the embankment.

Mas Ayoob knows Reston, and has shot with him. Mas says Reston is a very good shot. (I think he's both on Jacksonville SWAT, and one of their firearms instructors.) Everybody says Reston did a great job, especially after taking the initial hit to the face, and I agree. But if you look at it another way, given the circumstances of the attack, a highly trained SWAT officer and pistol competitor only scored 50% hits - and he did very well.

This is one of the reasons I get so tired of the "If you need more than 5 or 6 rounds" argument.

An excellent statement, I agree completely.

threegun · September 5, 2011, 11:49 AM

I know for me the one time I thought it was going down (a shootout that is)one part of my training back then kicked in big time. I suffered slow motion effects and hearing loss however I kept saying over and over "front site front site". It made me look for that big white dot on my Glock 20. No guarantee of a hit but you are going to be closer than if you don't find it and put it on the target IMO. It works well in competition anyway.

cookie5 · September 28, 2011, 08:42 PM

I live outside of the City of Redding but the guy shot wasn't a model citizen so to say and was supposedly armed and pointing the gun at the cops which would make me open fire as well. Sheriff Bosenko is a really honorable man so I tend to believe him. I would have to say cops spray a bit to much. I guess it takes time for some people to stop after they get shot.

WeedWacker · September 29, 2011, 01:01 PM

Quote:

This is one of the reasons I get so tired of the "If you need more than 5 or 6 rounds" argument.

First off, spot on argument and good example. I would rather have my XDm .45 than my LCR .38 any day I knew I was going to be in a firefight. I'd also want my Benelli and a sidesaddle full of 000 buck.

But while I agree that more rounds are always ideal, especially if you are going into a bad area of town for whatever reason, the average CPL holder won't be actively seeking out engagements like this. Trouble finds them rather than them chasing trouble. For many of us we can attempt to escape and evade. Smaller firearms are easier to conceal, which makes them ideal for warmer climates like Florida, Arizona, Georgia, et alibi. We cannot prepare for the absolute worst case scenario which we are unlikely to achieve, but we can prepare for as worse case a scenario is likely to happen.

In short, if you think you will need more than 5 rounds, by all means, take more than 5 if you can do it within your means (you can conceal speed loaders or a full sized pistol with spare mags; openly carry). If you can't, then make due with 5 rounds and keep your head on a swivel if you feel you are under gunned.

Don P · September 29, 2011, 01:17 PM

I have enough problems getting A hits at IDPA and USPSA matches so I would imagine that under stress I'm screwed. Down 1, down 2, Bravo, bravo, Charlie, Charlie, and the god awful delta, delta. I'll take all the rounds I can.

MLeake · September 29, 2011, 01:29 PM

WeedWacker, so far I haven't personally needed to use a firearm, though I have several friends and relatives who have had to do so.

But so far, whether it's the fact that I typically avoid problem areas; or the fact that I'm still a relatively healthy and athletic 6ft 210lb male; or the fact that I'm generally friendly and pleasant; or the fact that I inherited the Sicilian side of my family's ability to give a look, when necessary, that says "you really want to go bother somebody else right now" - I'm not really sure which of those factors have been more applicable - people have very rarely given me cause to use any sort of physical force.

In those rare instances where they have given me cause, weapons have thus far been unnecessary. (Wrestling, kempo, aikido, and aikijutsu for many years offer other options - and those options are typically more appropriate than a firearm. However, in those limited circumstances when a firearm is actually appropriate, it's a better option than hands-on.)

So it's not like I walk around "feeling undergunned."

It's also not like I walk around looking for battle.

However, if I'm going to go to the effort of carrying, I feel I might as well carry the maximum I can handle, while maintaining reasonable concealability and comfort. Because if I ever do need it, I'll probably want as much capability as possible.

I hear a lot of people say things like, "We aren't cops. We don't pursue. We'll try to leave." All true. However, the underlying assumption there is that the BG that caused you to have to draw will also decide to leave ASAP once he realizes that you plan to fight back.

I think that is a very dangerous assumption. I'm not sure what military or police trainers out there preach planning for best-case scenarios as default. (I'm pretty sure the correct answer would be NONE.)

Over 90% of BGs will probably scoot when a CCW draws a firearm, based on statistics. That still leaves around 10% who actually make at least some fight of it. Of those, a percentage will fight until physically stopped; a percentage of those will even win the fight, and quite possibly kill the CCW.

No attempted arrests nor cowboy attitudes required.

oneounceload · September 29, 2011, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Wow- .030 BAL

That's less than half the legal limit - his 0.30 - that is almost 4X the limit

This always amazes me:

Quote:

Wilson was wanted on 10 felony warrants that included armed robbery, burglary and attempted robbery,

Quote:

A group of about 50 gathered in front of the Shasta County Courthouse Aug. 12 to protest the shooting as excessive.

Why did it take so many?
First, we all know most police are not expert shooters, but then you have this:

Quote:

An autopsy revealed that Wilson had a blood-alcohol content of 0.30, nearly four times the legal limit. He also had morphine, methamphetamine, methadone, muscle relaxants and other drugs in his system,

A shining example of another productive member of society

C0untZer0 · September 29, 2011, 02:00 PM

Ya it's true that most bad guys flee, from the Reston case and others, I think you see that once the conflict actually begins there is a different mentality at work.

Joel Abner could have ran after he put Reston down with that first shot, but he didn't. He stood there and shot Reston in the chest and then he walked away. When he noticed Reston wasn't dead, he could have ran, but he didn't, he came back to kill him.

overkill0084 · September 29, 2011, 02:43 PM

Quote:

One family member has said police “shot him like he was a dog.”

Try as I might, I'm unable to find fault with the results of this incident. What do they think is going to happen when you shoot at police? Wait I know, they should have shot the gun out of his hand. Yea, that's the ticket. One more violent parasite removed from the gene poll, boo hoo.

FM12 · September 29, 2011, 04:15 PM

Also, I bet he was just turning around his life, and was taking hot meals to the eldery and reading to orphaned puppies when not in Sunday school.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

Deaf Smith · September 29, 2011, 07:29 PM

And add to that..

Lance Thomas:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...6/ai_82533205/

and

Gary Baker:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...e_skin;content

Deaf

5whiskey · September 29, 2011, 11:50 PM

While I don't feel undergunned going on duty with 22 rounds at my immediate disposal (Sig 220 with two extra mags), or by carrying a 7+1 Kahr with one extra mag (if I remember to pocket), I'm not going to say that more will never be needed. I will say that what I carry is plenty unless 1 in a million odds come my way.

You will never hear me preach that carrying a glock 17 with a 17+1 magazine is bad for you or stupid. I do tend to say that a revolver is plenty on this forum because, honestly, most of the time it is. I also would rather carry a .22 pocket rocket (revolver only if it's .22 and fits in the pocket) than nothing. The point, and important take away, is that I have a purpose in owning the guns that I do. I tried Glock 26, compact M&P, Sig P250... etc. I couldn't get over my quest for something smaller and more comfortable until I found the Kahr PM or CW. A CW9 (even though is "looks" about the same size as a G26, but trust me it's not) is about as big as I'm willing to carry everywhere. Anything larger get's left behind because it's uncomfortable. I'll open carry sometimes, but I'm required to display a badge when I do and I'd rather not. The point is, if a 12+ round "compact" were the only options I had, then I wouldn't carry. There are some who are not comfortable with autos and prefer revolvers. I think it's absolutely fine, as long as they carry.

The purpose of this diatribe, and I understand that no one is saying "you should carry 30 rounds or not carry at all", is to remind everyone that a (reliable) 5 shot .22 on hand is better than a 6.8spc LMT AR in the trunk.

MLeake · September 29, 2011, 11:59 PM

I was just told, by very good authority, that Jared Reston had a G22 in .40, not a G21 in .45...

WeedWacker · September 30, 2011, 04:05 AM

Quote:

However, if I'm going to go to the effort of carrying, I feel I might as well carry the maximum I can handle, while maintaining reasonable concealability and comfort. Because if I ever do need it, I'll probably want as much capability as possible.

Prepare for the worst possible scenario that you are most likely to encounter. If you feel you need the extra, all the more power to you. For me to make a trip to the bank then to the supermarket usually doesn't require my P226 and two extra 20 rd magazines. My LCR or PF9 will do. If I'm going to be at a large gathering area, say downtown Boise, yeah, I'm going to pack a bit more, like my SR9C with extra 17 round mags.

MLeake · September 30, 2011, 01:12 PM

And what would you have carried to the jewelry stores in the posts linked by Deaf Smith?

Deaf Smith · September 30, 2011, 07:08 PM

Quote:

And what would you have carried to the jewelry stores in the posts linked by Deaf Smith?

MLeake,

At least for me I'd A) have packed a gun ON ME as well as a few hidden, and B) Glocks with NY-1 triggers hidden about.

I'd pack one of my subcompacts on me (I have 'em all, 26, 27, and 33) and Glock mid-sized pistols around the place. If the help in the store could not handle .40 or .357 Sig, I'd just use Glock 19s and maybe DPX ammo.

Simple as that. And in fact, simple for the very reason they are simple to use, very reliable, and very little maintenance needed to keep them running. No spare mags either, just fully loaded guns.

Deaf

Stevie-Ray · October 1, 2011, 01:42 PM

Quote:

The purpose of this diatribe, and I understand that no one is saying "you should carry 30 rounds or not carry at all", is to remind everyone that a (reliable) 5 shot .22 on hand is better than a 6.8spc LMT AR in the trunk.

So true. I carry a primary and BUG, that's 7 rounds of .45 ACP and 7 rounds of .32 ACP, and I'm really getting tired of being told how paranoid I am. Wow, if I was that paranoid, I'd move! is such a stupid statement nowadays, it doesn't even warrant a retort, and my carry habits would seem rather light to some. Point is you'll NEVER see me tell anyone that carries a G17 with 2 extra 33 rd reloads that he's being silly. Everybody's circumstances are different and I would just like to see everyone carry what makes them most comfortable, be that the aforementioned Glock, or a PT-22.

garryc · October 2, 2011, 02:32 PM

I always have my Polish P-64 in 9x18 someplace. In the summer I carry IWB with a Sig P250 sub compact 9mm and one mag. When it goes a little colder, or I'm wearing a jacket, I carry that Sig and two mags or my XD compact 40 and an extra mag.

I also wear a Taclite concealment vest. In that I'll carry the XD and two mags with the P-64 inside my waist band. I like that vest simply because drawing in a seated position is a breeze.

Having been a C/O for 19 years, I know what these guys are capable of. I've seen it take 5 officers to take one down when he is simply in a rage. Of course we have no weapons of any kind. That gives me a special view of these thugs, one that not even a cop gets. Not just the force part, but the total spectrum of conduct.

Some years ago A cop told me that I didn't need a gun off duty. Of course he told me he carries his. I told him that a lot more felons would recognize me on the street than would him, and more than a few might want revenge. He rejected my argument.

Most of these stories are of cops in fire fights, often running fire fights. In an SD situation I have no desire to "win", no macho desire to prevail over an opponent. No, in a running fire fight it's me running the other way. I'm sure I'll be seeing that guy again.

September 2, 2011, 07:12 PM	#1
WIN71 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2005 Posts: 729	Sometimes one gun isn't enough Here's an article on a recent shooting. It shows just how difficult it is to stop an aggressor influenced by drugs and alcohol. http://www.redding.com/news/2011/sep...hooting-wante/ __________________ Air goes in and out. Blood goes 'round and 'round. Any variation on this is a very bad thing. 개인 정보를 보호하십시요

September 5, 2011, 09:28 AM	#3
kgpcr Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2005 Posts: 955	I read many of these articles and it sounds like he was made out of steel. Where did the 16 rounds hit him? what was he hit with? all i can tell you is i bet none of them were in the boiler room or none of the first rounds were in the boiler room. you start blowing big holes in lungs and hearts and they will go down __________________ Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag Smith M&P 40

September 29, 2011, 01:17 PM	#9
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	I have enough problems getting A hits at IDPA and USPSA matches so I would imagine that under stress I'm screwed. Down 1, down 2, Bravo, bravo, Charlie, Charlie, and the god awful delta, delta. I'll take all the rounds I can. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

September 29, 2011, 07:29 PM	#15
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	And add to that.. Lance Thomas: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...6/ai_82533205/ and Gary Baker: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...e_skin;content Deaf __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

September 29, 2011, 11:50 PM	#16
5whiskey Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2005 Location: US Posts: 3,652	While I don't feel undergunned going on duty with 22 rounds at my immediate disposal (Sig 220 with two extra mags), or by carrying a 7+1 Kahr with one extra mag (if I remember to pocket), I'm not going to say that more will never be needed. I will say that what I carry is plenty unless 1 in a million odds come my way. You will never hear me preach that carrying a glock 17 with a 17+1 magazine is bad for you or stupid. I do tend to say that a revolver is plenty on this forum because, honestly, most of the time it is. I also would rather carry a .22 pocket rocket (revolver only if it's .22 and fits in the pocket) than nothing. The point, and important take away, is that I have a purpose in owning the guns that I do. I tried Glock 26, compact M&P, Sig P250... etc. I couldn't get over my quest for something smaller and more comfortable until I found the Kahr PM or CW. A CW9 (even though is "looks" about the same size as a G26, but trust me it's not) is about as big as I'm willing to carry everywhere. Anything larger get's left behind because it's uncomfortable. I'll open carry sometimes, but I'm required to display a badge when I do and I'd rather not. The point is, if a 12+ round "compact" were the only options I had, then I wouldn't carry. There are some who are not comfortable with autos and prefer revolvers. I think it's absolutely fine, as long as they carry. The purpose of this diatribe, and I understand that no one is saying "you should carry 30 rounds or not carry at all", is to remind everyone that a (reliable) 5 shot .22 on hand is better than a 6.8spc LMT AR in the trunk. Last edited by 5whiskey; September 30, 2011 at 12:45 AM.

September 2, 2011, 08:39 PM	#2
Slopemeno Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2007 Posts: 2,663	...Or maybe how hard it is to get an a-zone hit when the target doesn't cooperate much. Wow- .030 BAL. I couldn't follow a thought much less run from the cops at that state.

September 5, 2011, 09:48 AM	#4
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	kgpcr, it would certainly be nice to think so... It would also certainly be nice to think we'd all score those A-Zone hits under pressure. But all you have to look up is "Jared Reston" to see that things don't always work out that way. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n56222291/ Reston is a deputy in Jacksonville, FL. In 2008, he was involved in a shootout while working an off-duty security job at a mall. An 18yo shoplifter he had chased from the mall to a retention pond across the road turned on him, and hit him a sledgehammer blow. Reston thought so, at first, anyway - thinking the kid had quite a punch. Turned out it wasn't a punch, it was a .45acp FMJ round from a Glock 21, straight to the chin. Bullet deflected, damaging Reston's jaw, and exiting his neck without hitting a major artery. But it stunned Reston, and he fell down the embankment, toward the retention pond, ending up on his back, head down toward the water. He managed to draw and return fire (I think he also had a G21; I know he had a .45). Both shooters ended up emptying 14 rounds. Reston was hit six times. Luckily, his vest stopped three of those rounds. Reston scored seven hits, though the last three were from point blank. He was shooting from his back, one-handed, as his support arm was damaged or broken by one of the shooter's early hits, as Reston was falling down the embankment. Mas Ayoob knows Reston, and has shot with him. Mas says Reston is a very good shot. (I think he's both on Jacksonville SWAT, and one of their firearms instructors.) Everybody says Reston did a great job, especially after taking the initial hit to the face, and I agree. But if you look at it another way, given the circumstances of the attack, a highly trained SWAT officer and pistol competitor only scored 50% hits - and he did very well. This is one of the reasons I get so tired of the "If you need more than 5 or 6 rounds" argument. In my last several rounds of military recurrent qualification, I have missed one handgun shot. One. And that was from prone, with helmet and goggles, when the helmet shifted and slammed the goggles into the bridge of my nose as I was pulling the trigger. But I think there are very good odds that I could miss 50% in a gunfight situation, especially if I had taken the first hit. YMMV.

September 5, 2011, 11:49 AM	#6
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	I know for me the one time I thought it was going down (a shootout that is)one part of my training back then kicked in big time. I suffered slow motion effects and hearing loss however I kept saying over and over "front site front site". It made me look for that big white dot on my Glock 20. No guarantee of a hit but you are going to be closer than if you don't find it and put it on the target IMO. It works well in competition anyway.

September 28, 2011, 08:42 PM	#7
cookie5 Senior Member Join Date: September 1, 2011 Posts: 217	I live outside of the City of Redding but the guy shot wasn't a model citizen so to say and was supposedly armed and pointing the gun at the cops which would make me open fire as well. Sheriff Bosenko is a really honorable man so I tend to believe him. I would have to say cops spray a bit to much. I guess it takes time for some people to stop after they get shot.

September 29, 2011, 01:29 PM	#10
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	WeedWacker, so far I haven't personally needed to use a firearm, though I have several friends and relatives who have had to do so. But so far, whether it's the fact that I typically avoid problem areas; or the fact that I'm still a relatively healthy and athletic 6ft 210lb male; or the fact that I'm generally friendly and pleasant; or the fact that I inherited the Sicilian side of my family's ability to give a look, when necessary, that says "you really want to go bother somebody else right now" - I'm not really sure which of those factors have been more applicable - people have very rarely given me cause to use any sort of physical force. In those rare instances where they have given me cause, weapons have thus far been unnecessary. (Wrestling, kempo, aikido, and aikijutsu for many years offer other options - and those options are typically more appropriate than a firearm. However, in those limited circumstances when a firearm is actually appropriate, it's a better option than hands-on.) So it's not like I walk around "feeling undergunned." It's also not like I walk around looking for battle. However, if I'm going to go to the effort of carrying, I feel I might as well carry the maximum I can handle, while maintaining reasonable concealability and comfort. Because if I ever do need it, I'll probably want as much capability as possible. I hear a lot of people say things like, "We aren't cops. We don't pursue. We'll try to leave." All true. However, the underlying assumption there is that the BG that caused you to have to draw will also decide to leave ASAP once he realizes that you plan to fight back. I think that is a very dangerous assumption. I'm not sure what military or police trainers out there preach planning for best-case scenarios as default. (I'm pretty sure the correct answer would be NONE.) Over 90% of BGs will probably scoot when a CCW draws a firearm, based on statistics. That still leaves around 10% who actually make at least some fight of it. Of those, a percentage will fight until physically stopped; a percentage of those will even win the fight, and quite possibly kill the CCW. No attempted arrests nor cowboy attitudes required.

September 29, 2011, 02:00 PM	#12
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Ya it's true that most bad guys flee, from the Reston case and others, I think you see that once the conflict actually begins there is a different mentality at work. Joel Abner could have ran after he put Reston down with that first shot, but he didn't. He stood there and shot Reston in the chest and then he walked away. When he noticed Reston wasn't dead, he could have ran, but he didn't, he came back to kill him.

September 29, 2011, 04:15 PM	#14
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Also, I bet he was just turning around his life, and was taking hot meals to the eldery and reading to orphaned puppies when not in Sunday school. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

September 29, 2011, 11:59 PM	#17
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Slight revision to earlier post I was just told, by very good authority, that Jared Reston had a G22 in .40, not a G21 in .45...

September 30, 2011, 01:12 PM	#19
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	And what would you have carried to the jewelry stores in the posts linked by Deaf Smith?

October 2, 2011, 02:32 PM	#22
garryc Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 2,536	I always have my Polish P-64 in 9x18 someplace. In the summer I carry IWB with a Sig P250 sub compact 9mm and one mag. When it goes a little colder, or I'm wearing a jacket, I carry that Sig and two mags or my XD compact 40 and an extra mag. I also wear a Taclite concealment vest. In that I'll carry the XD and two mags with the P-64 inside my waist band. I like that vest simply because drawing in a seated position is a breeze. Having been a C/O for 19 years, I know what these guys are capable of. I've seen it take 5 officers to take one down when he is simply in a rage. Of course we have no weapons of any kind. That gives me a special view of these thugs, one that not even a cop gets. Not just the force part, but the total spectrum of conduct. Some years ago A cop told me that I didn't need a gun off duty. Of course he told me he carries his. I told him that a lot more felons would recognize me on the street than would him, and more than a few might want revenge. He rejected my argument. Most of these stories are of cops in fire fights, often running fire fights. In an SD situation I have no desire to "win", no macho desire to prevail over an opponent. No, in a running fire fight it's me running the other way. I'm sure I'll be seeing that guy again.