Side-thread on inspient case head separation

[Sevens]

I started pecking out a post in the other thread regarding oddball Hornady .308 brass that was showing an pending doom case head separation but then I figured maybe I'd just open a second discussion. I'm long-winded.

As I've mentioned numerous times, I'm a decades long enthusiast handloader but I merely dabble in rifle, which I find -FAR- different from handgun loading. Mostly I build .223 for my prairie dog gun, a Howa 1500 bolt action.

My questions are these--
I know that many use the observance of a bright stretch ring and some have used a paper clip with a small hook bent to search for the insipient case head separation gremlin, but I kind of feel like neither of these methods has worked for me (yet?!) and as I use this ammo for a hunt roughly 1,200 miles from home, I would really like to avoid killing a hunting day with a piece of stuck brass.

To that end, I keep a rod and copper brush in my backpack in hopes that if it does happen, I can get the blasted half-a-case out of my chamber, but I have simply never experienced this yet.

I can tell you that the load I settled on is a 50gr V-Max over 25.7gr H-335, I don't recall COAL but I can tell you that it is on the short side, nowhere near the lands and I have never once (in maybe 1,600 rounds) seen any sign of high pressure. Safe to say that my brass has seen maybe as little as 3 to as many as maybe 6 loadings. And sorry, no, admittedly I have not kept track. (Handgun guy, remember?)

My brass is mixed headstamp but sorted (as in, 50rd box is all LC or PMC or R-P or Fiocchi, etc) and I pretty much use the same brass over and over. My method has been once fired, F/L sized, trimmed, then after it's been fired in that rifle, I use the Lee collet neck-only size die.

My thought process is that I'm working the brass far less by using this die. I also find it to be less work and I can't say enough about the success of these loads in that rifle.

So then...
Would you guys have opinions on:

--better searching for insipient separation?
--best removal? How about in the field?
--my load, would you say it's well away from the redline?
--my reasoning behind the use of the Lee collet neck-only size die?

And yes hahaha, for the record I do realize that I could "best" avoid a case head separation in the field simply by retiring the brass after 3 firings... but I guess that simply isn't the question I am asking (or more to the point... it isn't the answer I seek )

Thanks!

[F. Guffey]

And yes hahaha, for the record I do realize that I could "best" avoid a case head separation in the field simply by retiring the brass after 3 firings... but I guess that simply isn't the question I am asking (or more to the point... it isn't the answer I seek )

I determine the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face. I off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face with the case when measured from the shoulder of the case to the case head.

I do not have a problem with manufacturers that do not sell cases to reloaders that know what they are doing. I look for long cases that are long from the shoulder to the case head; I do not look for short cases; short cases must be fired first to become long cases from the shoulder to the case head. And then there is that part that is most complicated for reloaders to understand. It does not bother me because I have shop skills; man needs to know what that shoulder is doing when firing and sizing.

F. Guffey

[Colorado Redneck]

204 Ruger brass has never exhibited the symptoms of case head separation. The case necks split and they go into the recycle bin. Same with 222 Remington. 22-250 is a different story. Almost every time I work brass, a case or two or three shows that little shiny ring. I have wasted time with ye olde paper clip, detected cases that seemed to have the tell tale groove, used a dremel the cut a few of those cases, and found no evidence of pending case separation. Some of the older cases...22-250... have maybe 12-15 reloads. I did have a case separation when firing, and nothing terrible occurred. The rear of the case extracted, and the rest of the case came out easily with the bronze brush.

Take more than one rifle on your shoots. If one has a malfunction you still have the other(s). I always take 3 guns. I have had them fall off the bench and mess up the sighting. I have dropped a gun more than once and even messed up a scope. So backup is good.

[Sevens]

I like the backup idea but it won't happen, these are hiking hunts and I already pack a lot of gear. A second or third rifle is not on the menu.

[Metal god]

OK you're talking 223 now correct ? If so that load should be gtg . I have a 25.5gr load I shoot 55gr bullets with no issues .

If you're just neck sizing , head separation is unlikely in the first few loadings . I don't remember if you said you only neck sized those 308 Hornady cases ???

I think the simple answer is find a good factory ammo to take and use for hunting . If you must take reloads I'd use once fired and only once neck sized reloads . As you keep neck sizing only . The cartridge should be getting harder and harder to chamber . You don't want that in the field , It's best to have a smooth easy chambering second/follow up shot when needed . Rather then one that sticks and resist chambering when you need it most .

Second would be to start keeping track of times fired and type of sizing you did for each . If you keep these types of notes you will already have your answers because you will know what cases handle multiple loadings better and why .

It's funny to me you say your a handgun guy and is why you don't do some of the things rifle guys do . I was a rifle guy first and when I started reloading handgun I did everything as if I were loading rifle . Separate by headstamp , trim all the cases , clean primer pockets etc . I was doing WAY more work then needed , while it looks like you may be doing a little less then you should . You're not just going to the range for a little plinking fun . You are going on a hunt & hike and your equipment needs to work when called upon . IMHO this is not the time you try to get that 5th , 6th or 7th loading out of your brass .

[Unclenick]

Sevens,

It's almost impossible to get a head separation reloading by neck sizing. The mechanism of separation at normal pressures (like yours) depends on you setting the shoulder back so the chamber has excess headspace (excess here does not mean excessive; it is merely more than is strictly necessary to accommodate the cartridge). Normally, when you fire a gun the firing pin blow and the primer trying to push itself out of the case will drive the shoulder of the case into the shoulder of the chamber so that all the excess headspace is behind the case head as pressure starts to build. Pressure builds faster than the bullet can start to move significantly, so the case swells like a balloon and, in high power rifle, establishes enough friction between the sides of the case and the brass to hold onto it against the pressure force needed to push the head into contact with the breech by stretching the brass. Since your cases already occupy all the headspace, there is no opportunity for that to happen.

[Metal god]

It's almost impossible to get a head separation reloading by neck sizing.

I thought and believe that but did not want to say it outright just in case I was wrong . So I said it's unlikely in the first few reloads thinking when he FL sized again it could happen depending on how far he bumped the shoulders back .

[Unclenick]

There are only two ways I can see it happening with neck sizing. One is if the loads are so hot the bolt is hard to open (stretching the gun back) or are so hot they are bulging the bras in the unsupported part of the chamber over and over again. I neither case is it easy to get the case to rechamber, though, so it it's unlikely to be a practical scenario. The other was a very long chamber, but even that is difficult to see playing out as at least the extractor will limit how far the case can get away from the bolt face. So I'm thinking neck splits first, and he might avoid those by annealing.

Board member Hummer70 has one .308 case that has had, I believe he said, 157 reloads. You can't read the headstamp any longer on a case like that, but if you shoot moderate pressures and don't resize significantly and anneal the neck from time to time, you can get some pretty amazing brass life extension.

[44 AMP]

--best removal? How about in the field?

The best removal tool is a ruptured case extractor. I have GI ones for .30 cal, never saw one for .22cal, don't know if they make one.

When a case head comes off completely, the remaining case may pop free easily, or it may be very well stuck. IF its well stuck, jamming a stiff brush into it may not provide enough grip.


One method that will work is a tap. But, be CERTAIN you get a tap size that will not cut through to case to the chamber walls. Get a good "bite" in the case with the tap, then a rod down the bore should pop it loose.
A screw (self tapping screw, like a wood screw) will also work, again, same thing, don't use one that can touch the chamber, just get a bite in the broken case.

Alternatively, you can make a tool with an "L" shape hook on the end, to hook on the case mouth.

[Unclenick]

…And, if you're not in a hurry, letting some Kroil soak in around the stuck part for a day may help as well.

[Sevens]

The things you guys are saying is 90% of the reason that I use the collet neck-only sizer, mostly I want to extend brass life. It is not that I am cheap or destitute and cannot get .223 brass (I have many thousands...) it's much more that I straight-up loathe trimming it. Trimming and chamfer makes my hands ache.

5% is that F/L sizing needs lube and more physical work, neck sizing is easier.

The last 5% is my thought (...hope?) that brass fire formed to my chamber makes for more accurate ammo.

I would like to make one brief point about the Lee collet die -- it doesn't neck size the same way the old salts from decades back always did. It squeezes the brass around a mandrel, I believe but not totally sure, but I think the Lee collet die is the ONLY die on the market that does this task in this manner.

Also to be clear... haha, the other thread and the crazy Hornady .308 piece... not me, not mine, I simply read it with great interest.

Lastly... I have read for years about "bumping back that shoulder" but ummm... in 3 to 6 loads through this rifle with this established load and my documented process... well I just haven't seen it, have not experienced it. The handloads chamber like the rifle cannot WAIT to get 'em, like a much-loved dog accepting a treat from your hands. Perhaps my bench method and the chamber of this rifle combined with this "not max" load is the perfect storm, but the rifle loves the ammo.

Though I'll never be a real hunter, I'm still smart enough that before I drive 1,200 miles, rest assured that of the 500 rounds of ammo I take, a full 40% have already been run through the rifle. Stacked in the internal box magazine and fed, chambered, extracted and ejected. I do a random pick of 20rds from every 50 round box. This is my way of finding a problem at home with the chance to make more (better) ammo before I leave.

You guys have helped me a lot, here and in all the rifle handloading threads. In the other rifle discussions, I read a lot and post very little. We shouldn't ever forget that far more folks benefit from a good discussion on these pages than simply the guy asking the question.

Much thanks!