The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 5, 2018, 07:36 AM   #1
PlatinumCore16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2017
Location: Colorado
Posts: 424
Helping out a Newbie

Alright, so I am taking my roommate to go shooting this weekend. They have expressed interest in becoming proficient because they would like some self defense in the home. They have said they have looked into concealed carrying, but didn't really seem to have a real want to go that route, so for the purpose of this post, we'll assume HD only. They have said they shot with their dad before and they are a little scared of the noise/recoil.

Now on to the question: I have both a CCW and a full size. They have held both. What I would like advice on is, do I start them off shooting the full size, knowing that their primary intent is (most likely) HD? OR do I have them shoot the CCW to start so that they can feel the smaller size and then work up to the full size?

Thank you for all advice.
PlatinumCore16 is offline  
Old April 5, 2018, 07:46 AM   #2
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
Generally speaking full size firearms are easier to handle. A slightly longer sight radius helps aiming and the extra mass tames recoil with similar cartridges. The grips tend to allow a "full" grip where some compact and sub-compact firearms do not.

Case in point: my wife absolutely HATED my G26 but loves her G17C.

As an aside I hope I never have to experience I have always felt a full size firearm would be able to take control of should something go wrong and the user accidentally create a safety issue with it but this is probably drastically over thought. The larger firearm does make it easier for me to tell where it is pointed
Lohman446 is offline  
Old April 5, 2018, 08:21 AM   #3
WVsig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 5,309
As a general rule of thumb I would start them off with a 22LR Ruger. Let them get a feel for pulling the trigger and handling the gun. If this new shooter is "scared" of the noise and recoil this is the place to start if you can.

From there I go to a DA/SA revolver. No mags to worry about no slide lock decocker etc... I load up light load 38 spl and let them feel the difference between 22LR and a defensive sized caliber. It also allows them to feel the difference between DA and SA.

Once they have a decent feel for the revolver we move on to an semi-auto pistol. I normally start here with a 9mm. If they master that I will also introduce a 45 ACP. What guns do you have? Does the new shooter have larger or small hands? These are considerations when choosing which one to start with. If your fullsized gun does not "fit" them but your CCW gun does it would be better to shoot the CCW gun.

If fit is not a major consideration shoot the fullsized gun. It will be larger with a longer sight radius. It will be heavier and absorb more recoil than a typical CCW gun.

The #1 goal here is to get them used to and comfortable with the gun in their hand. Take is slow. You do not want to cause more fear or dislike of recoil and noise. Make sure you have good hearing protection. If you have them make sure they are wearing electronic ear pro so they can hear you and your instructions. If it is still too loud I would also have foam ear plugs available so they can double up if they need to.
__________________
-The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis
-Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin
-It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
WVsig is offline  
Old April 5, 2018, 08:50 AM   #4
Bartholomew Roberts
member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
While it is a serious subject, keep the experience fun and don’t try to pack too much information into a single session where they glaze over. Pick a very basic idea and work on that only. Something with some entertainment value.

I also like to discuss basic weapons manipulations, safety and what to expect at the range in a separate discussion a few days prior to going to the range. That way you aren’t hindered by hearing protection and the familiar environment helps put them at ease. However, I still identify a safe backstop and enforce muzzle discipline when doing this (another good thing to hit on without additional stimuli and hearin protection).

At the range, starting with a .22 is always a good move if you can. A suppressed .22 with a red dot on an uncrowded outdoor range is the platinum approach. From there, I progress into full-size 9mm with low height over bore.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old April 5, 2018, 08:56 AM   #5
Ricklin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Location: SW Washington state
Posts: 1,996
Use the KISS principle

Stop for a minute and remember back to your first time with handguns.

For a lot of folks they got their education in firearms watching Bruce Willis shoot smiley faces is paper targets rapid fire.

Begin with the end in mind. I would not even bring my LCP for that range trip. Esp. since CC is not on the table a full size 9mm would likely be a good choice. Start with the 4 rules, and a .22, move up to the 9mm on the 2nd or 3rd range trip.
__________________
ricklin
Freedom is not free
Ricklin is offline  
Old April 5, 2018, 09:13 AM   #6
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
While I am on board with the start with a .22 concept I would pay attention to the shooter. If he or she grows bored because he or she was expecting some action movie type pistol that may backfire as well. A shooter should leave his or her first range experience with a big grin. One can always circle back and learn the fundamentals of shooting accurately later.
Lohman446 is offline  
Old April 5, 2018, 10:51 AM   #7
Pahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 8,783
Slow and easy, wins this race !!!

Quote:
They have said they have looked into concealed carrying, but didn't really seem to have a real want to go that route, so for the purpose of this post, we'll assume HD only.
Even with this current requirement, you will find that this process in or can be evolutionary. I too would start out slow and easy and make it fun/successful. One of the biggest mistakes that I have seen when kids and beginners, is starting out too hot and scaring them away. Let them set their own pace and don't be surprised that some want to stick to the .22's. ......

I have taught a few all-women's classes and they make some of the best students I encounter but you have to go slow and easy and always maintain a positive attitude. ......

Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.
Pahoo is offline  
Old April 5, 2018, 11:23 AM   #8
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
"...scared of the noise/recoil..." Start 'em with a .22. Mind you, it's more about the noise than the recoil, so good ear defenders and eye protection is essential. And the firearm must fit their hand.
And make it very clear that nobody can defend their house without proper training. There ain't no such thing as a "natural shot".
"...have both a CCW and a full size..." A what and a full size what? A CCW is not a firearm model or type. Neither is a "full size".
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old April 5, 2018, 02:14 PM   #9
ms6852
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,394
Agree with some of the above. Start out with a 22lr. This is a great way for them to overcome their fear and avoid getting a case of flinchitis. The 22lr is a great platform for them to learn their basic skills such as maintaining sight picture, breathing, trigger control, and allowing them to develop good muscle memory and endurance without breaking the bank. Once they have established a good grasp of basic gun skill and have developed their confidence moving to a higher caliber handgun will make for a better transition without them having to fear recoil. After all, what good does it make to have a heavy caliber weapon if you can not hit what you are aiming at.
__________________
ONLY TWO DEFINING FORCES HAVE GIVEN UP THEIR LIVES FOR YOU. ONE IS JESUS CHRIST FOR YOUR SOUL AND THE OTHER IS THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOUR FREEDOM.
ms6852 is offline  
Old April 5, 2018, 02:41 PM   #10
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 4,700
Yes, start with a 22. Plugs and muffs.
The first handguns I fired were an M1911 and a Browning High power, but I didn't learn to shoot until I practiced Bullseye with my High Standard Victor.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old April 5, 2018, 03:30 PM   #11
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,074
I am not trying to be crass but if you must ask about how to best conduct basic instruction, perhaps you are not the one who should be instructing them. I say this because their initial instruction needs to be spot on.

Honestly, I don't think it matters one way or the other which one you start with but if it were me, my inclination would be for them to shoot the largest overall size/heaviest gun first. If this is directed at HD, small and compact is not really a high priority. I have never found compact guns to be easier to shoot.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; April 5, 2018 at 03:38 PM.
FireForged is offline  
Old April 5, 2018, 05:14 PM   #12
Ricklin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Location: SW Washington state
Posts: 1,996
No argument

Why would we be thinking small for a home defense pistol? Concealment is not on the menu.
Self defense caliber guns have recoil, smaller self defense guns have more recoil, generally speaking.

Keep it simple. Holes in the target are a good thing, holes elsewhere generally not.

Some folks find it very challenging to accurately fire a pistol. Start with that. For which a .22 is the best "real" gun.

I spent a lot of time in my basement with a pellet pistol when I first learned to be reasonably accurate with a handgun.
__________________
ricklin
Freedom is not free
Ricklin is offline  
Old April 6, 2018, 02:48 PM   #13
PlatinumCore16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2017
Location: Colorado
Posts: 424
Thank you all for the responses. I have taken others shooting before, some new, some not so much. But this is the first person who expressed the concern of the recoil. My ex was nervous, but we worked through it and she ended up enjoying it and was actually quite good with her personal firearm. I really like the idea of working through the manual of arms prior to being at the range. And I know this won't be the last person who I introduce to pistols and I have read a lot about the benefits of shooting with a .22lr, so maybe I'll just see what my LGS has on the shelf.

For those asking, I have a Taurus 9mm and a S&W 9mm. So if no inexpensive .22lr's are available, we'll just stick to the S&W.

Thanks again,
Platinum

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
PlatinumCore16 is offline  
Old April 6, 2018, 06:04 PM   #14
Don Fischer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2017
Posts: 1,868
My P 89 Ruger is full size and 9mm Recoil is not bad at all and for the home, it carry's twice the ammo the concealed carry handgun does. For myself for home defense it would be full size. I would not start them with a 22 unless you have one or know someone that does. Even then they will probably compare the 22 recoil to the 9mm or maybe a 380. Don't know anything about the 380, never shot one.
Don Fischer is offline  
Old April 6, 2018, 06:36 PM   #15
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,824
Safety first. Teach them all the safety rules. Teach them about ammunition and caliber. It must match with the markings on the firearm. Teach them handling and operations of the firearm. This should be done in a classroom with no ammunition. Then range.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old April 6, 2018, 06:57 PM   #16
Ricklin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Location: SW Washington state
Posts: 1,996
Try a Japanese guy!

I work with a manufacturer in Tokyo, there export manager and I have become close friends.
My friend Tatsuya loves to fish, I try to take him fishing when he visits here. He shows me the sights in Japan when I go there.

We finished fishing (skunked) but had a little extra time before I had to bring him to PDX for his flight home.

I asked him if had ever shot a gun, he said he had never even touched a real gun. I of course was pulling in to my range as I am asking the question....I know my friend.

Don't think I have ever seen anyone pick up a handgun (G19) and proceed to shoot good groups @ 7 yards. I asked him how that was possible....he smiled sheepishly and said.....video games!

When I next visited Japan the targets from that day were proudly hung above his desk.
It was the MOST FUN I had ever had introducing anyone to guns. I regret not shooting video but was of course very safety focused and could not.

Next time will be trap. but gotta find a gun that fits him so he will have fun. I am a LOT bigger than he.
__________________
ricklin
Freedom is not free
Ricklin is offline  
Old April 6, 2018, 08:24 PM   #17
WVsig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 5,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricklin View Post
I work with a manufacturer in Tokyo, there export manager and I have become close friends.
My friend Tatsuya loves to fish, I try to take him fishing when he visits here. He shows me the sights in Japan when I go there.

We finished fishing (skunked) but had a little extra time before I had to bring him to PDX for his flight home.

I asked him if had ever shot a gun, he said he had never even touched a real gun. I of course was pulling in to my range as I am asking the question....I know my friend.

Don't think I have ever seen anyone pick up a handgun (G19) and proceed to shoot good groups @ 7 yards. I asked him how that was possible....he smiled sheepishly and said.....video games!

When I next visited Japan the targets from that day were proudly hung above his desk.
It was the MOST FUN I had ever had introducing anyone to guns. I regret not shooting video but was of course very safety focused and could not.

Next time will be trap. but gotta find a gun that fits him so he will have fun. I am a LOT bigger than he.
That is a great story! LOVE IT.
__________________
-The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis
-Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin
-It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
WVsig is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07885 seconds with 8 queries