Backup gun: more is better?

[Auto5]

Back in the 1970s, our sheriff's office restricted duty ammo to department issued .38 special 158 gr RN. There were no such restrictions, however, on "backup" guns, so long as you could qualify with it. There were a few guys who carried a .45acp or .357 as a "backup".

[B.A.]

Thanks, Auto5.
There's one on my books. Not sure if I believe in the concept myself, but there seems to be at least some logic to the somewhat out of the box thinking.
Snyper's point about 'main weapon lost or out of action' still carries a lot of weight for carrying less weight, though.

[Glenn Dee]

I dont refer to it as a back-up gun but as a second gun or the small gun. They became really popular in police circles as the NY reload during the time when NYC Officers carried six shot revolvers. In theory it was quicker to pull a second gun than to reload the service revolver. Having been there, I know that cops carried al manner of second guns including a second service revolver. Department policy at the time was that an officer may carry a second firearm while on duty as long as the second gun is not open to public view and was a department authorized weapon and used authorized ammo. My come to reality moment was when my partner and watched a movie together "The Onion Field".

From that moment on I carried a second gun, even after transitioning to auto pistols and I carried a Glock 19, I still carried a 5 shot J frame. But this is in policing. Now as a civillian I have very little need for a second gun, but it does happen.My second career finds me working at odd hours and in desperate places. There are times I take a second gun with me or a higher capacity pistol. It's all about the percieved threat..

[849ACSO]

or a "get off me gun."

Yes. As an LEO, I have carried a J frame on my ankle for over 20 years. When someone pins me down on my strong side in a road ditch, or they are sitting in my passenger side seat trying to get my pistol from my holster, I have an option that I can get to. Ever tried to lay on your holstered pistol and get it out? Laying on my side, I can make my ankle and hand meet. Sitting in my vehicle, I can make my hand and ankle meet. It's my intention that I will do my due diligence to push the muzzle between the 2nd and 3rd rib and pull the trigger until I am free.

Hard to reach, awkward and very susceptible to being dropped or otherwise compromised in any kind of footrace, fight etc.

I have conducted all manner of physical activities wearing an ankle gun, and have never run into the issues you speak of. I even do my routine 3-4 mile runs 3-4 times a week wearing it. Maybe that's why I CAN REACH my ankles.............

Your ankle or boot is a really bad place to carry any firearm. Works in movies and on TV, but not so much in the real world

It has worked in my real world everyday for 22 years. I am even required to qualify with the gun and holster, which I have never failed to do. Don't make assumptions/conclusions for others based on your performance.

[B.A.]

849ACSO

LOL and point taken. I've never tried or even considered an ankle holster although I have a friend who carries his just about daily. So, kudos to you and if it works, I'm not knocking it. If it seemed like I was, then yes, it's a mix of my assumptions and quite likely a bit of Internet keyboard expertise. And I can reach my ankles, yes, but it's a bit of a reach.
BA

[JERRYS.]

I carry a G26 in a DeSantis ankle rig for 12+ hours a day as a cop. I don't use the calf strap because it kept sliding down my longer than average legs. ive run after and caught all kinds of creeps. no issues with the rig or gun, its a matter of conditioning. however, I believe this was meant from the perspective of a private citizen which makes matters considerably different.

[buckhorn_cortez]

One of the considerations with a backup gun is whether it is legal to carry two guns concealed. In the State of New Mexico, the concealed carry law only allows one gun concealed.

Because of the State law, I never carry a backup gun as it makes no sense to open carry one gun, in order to carry a concealed backup - or, vice versa.

[TRX]

a) your main gun gets taken away from you

b) your main gun takes a bullet or sustains other damage, making it inoperable

c) your main gun jams or breaks and becomes inoperable

d) you pass your BUG to someone else who can help (some of my friends don't see the need to carry consistently...)

e) you just like guns and feel like taking them for a walk

f) my wife would be hurt if I didn't carry the LCP she gave me, no matter what other gun I was carrying...

[WC145]

Interesting thread and a good read, the ones on these subjects usually go off the tracks by now. I carried a back up gun for almost all of my LE career (except for 4 years as a USAF SP), sometimes in an ankle holster, most of the time in my off side cargo pocket. I also carried two or three knives. As others have stated, these were for "get the hell off me" duty, if things had gone completely to s***. Most of the time it was a revolver, first a S&W 642, later a custom 9mm S&W 360J, with a Kel-tec .380 doing a brief stint in between. I used laser grips on the J frames because they allowed to shoot accurately without having to raise the gun or be able to see the sights. Like any other gear you carry regularly, you use them, train with them, stay proficient, and you become accustomed to having them on you, just part of the package.

Now that I'm retired from LE I almost never carry two guns (except when hunting, then I carry my long gun plus a sidearm), though I always carry at least one reload, usually two, and still carry two knives. However, my second career is as a respiratory therapist and working in a hospital forces me to conceal my gun so that there is no possibility of it being seen, usually in an ankle holster. When I go to work I keep a "go bag" in my vehicle with a full size pistol in it, either a Hi Power or a 1911 and several spare mags. In keeping with the OPs idea, the full size piece is my back up. If the SHTF, I would try to get to my vehicle and gear up if possible/practical. I have a discreet go bag for my PS90 and I am considering replacing the pistol bag with it. I live/work in a rural area, LE coverage is sparse and a TAC/SWAT team is hours away so the OP's back up plan has some validity here, though not necessarily as a second, larger weapon on your person, but more like the patrol rifle I had in the trunk of the cruiser when I was on the job.

[armedleo]

My agency strictly forbids carrying any firearm other than issued sidearm with issued ammo and two mags; (if qualified) Remington 870 shotgun to be checked out before tour of duty; and (if qualified) Colt M4 patrol rifle to be checked out before tour of duty.

A buddy of mine remained a beat cop for the last 10 years of his career until forced (medical) retirement. His beat was the downtown business district where he became a fixture. After roll call he'd get a ride up to his beat where he'd first have coffee and then begin his foot patrol. He would usually begin his patrol just as the shopkeepers were opening up for the day's business.

One morning as he was ambling along from down the street he heard a woman scream, "I've been robbed!" My buddy looks down about half a block away and sees a woman chasing across the street after a man who was running under a full head of steam carrying a bank deposit bag. My buddy called out ordering the man to come back to him. With that, the perp turns on heel and is now charging my buddy in a bum rush. The perp launched himself mid-air knocking my buddy to the ground. My buddy is now flat on his back and the perp has him straddled.

They are now in a life and death struggle over the cop's sidearm. Meantime, the shopkeepers who've known my buddy for 10 years lock themselves inside their stores where they watch the two fight. BTW, no one called 911. The sirens bringing cavalry did finally come because of the cop's emergency tilt signal in his portable radio indicating he's down.

The two struggled for the gun and the holster was beginning to separate from the gun belt. The cop is 50 years old and has the mid-section to show for it. The perp is an athletic 28 year old illegal immigrant from Nigeria who'd been shot once before in a fight over a cop's gun. (Yes, he was supposed to have been deported.) The cop was starting to peter out and realized he would soon lose his gun to this madman. He began giving up. So, with his left hand he dug deep into his left front pocket and pulled from it a .45 cal two-shot derringer he'd carried for over 20 years. Suddenly, he let loose both barrels from the derringer held at point-blank range just below the perp's rib cage. And just as suddenly the fight stopped with the perp now slumped over the cop.

No one ever mentioned the cop's derringer as being in violation of policy. And, thus, to answer your question, that's the purpose of a back-up gun.

[briandg]

I disagree with going bigger with a backup gun. Lots of reasons. First is that you should carry enough gun as your first response, if you own a 9mm double stack and a spare mag you are already carrying enough gun to carry you through 99% of all hostile encounters as a civilian. No, that thing may not down the crazed zombie tweaker who won't even feel it, not the first shot or two, but it's enough to stop almost any threat unless you personally just blow it.

You say you're in africa, do you have dangerous game like lions, elephants, buffalo, or even bigger things, or are your concerns no different than mine? Myself, I live in a place where an occasional cricket breaks into my basement, a guy down the road has a very nasty mastiff, and there are a few meth dealers that come and go.

There is a point at which you need to quit preparing for an apocalyptic battle, and just put your faith in yourself and your weapons. Unless you are heading into such a battle, you have no need for a nine and extra mags in the holster and a .45 stuck on the off side holster. By the time you have used your first two magazines a typical civilian would already be dead or disabled.

The knife has been mentioned a few times. In fact, for many, many years the knife was my sole defensive weapon. Sometimes I still toss my favorite into my off side pocket. It isn't going to help unless you are right in front of the guy, but I can assure you, punching a wide blade through a guys ribs or intestines is going to be pretty near as disabling as anything from a .25 to .32, and maybe a .380.

http://www.buckknives.com/product/to...e/0650BKSTP-B/

your most important goal is to learn how to use yourself and your skills and strength to survive and fight. Your least concern is what you carry as backup to your sidearm and extra magazines. Without training, that gun is almost as useless as a club. Get training. Practice.

The most important thing to learn is to develop "the eye of the tiger." At the mall, do you wander around in oblivious haze, looking at the windows, or do you keep half of your attention all around you? My wife always nags at me because of this. I keep my carry weapon under my left thigh, but sometimes forget and leave it in my belt. If I see something odd, and it's not under my hind end, I remember and drag it out.

"dear, it belongs where I just put it, doesn't it? what does it matter if I just remembered it because a crazy homeless guy just walked past talking to himself?" She does the same thing, if she is driving and she sees something unusual, she locks the doors. "Dear, why in the name of god did you wait until the meth head started walking towards the car before you locked it?!

People here have developed a new game. They walk up on an unsuspecting person and just sucker punch them as hard as they can. Are you someone who will allow a gang of kids to walk right into your danger zone and pummel you into a brain hemorrhage, or are you the one who plans ahead and evades the potential threat?

[fastbolt]

The idea of secondary (or backup) weapons in LE has been around quite a while.

I remember in the 70's and 80's when it was often promoted that a secondary handgun ought to be "at least" as "powerful" as the primary weapon. The reasoning was more rationalizing than objective justification, especially for the "caliber enthusiasts" of the time.

Then there were the folks who thought a diminutive .22 or .25 would be "enough". One older cop (retired) actually told me that he'd carried a .22 Short, because he knew if he fired it into the ground it would make suspects flee.

I remember the Onion Field incident (memorialized in a book and then a Movie), and see the advantage of having a secondary weapon against such a situation, even if it were a really small one, like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Remember the days of the High Standard .22 Derringers? Then, NAA started making some little 5-shot single action revolvers.

In recent years there's been no shortage of really small pistols chambered in the fastest growing commercial caliber in the US, which is .380 ACP. Well made, affordable little guns like the Ruger LCP have taken the market by storm.

Nowadays it's becoming increasingly common for agencies to develop policies for secondary weapons, including requiring inspection of them and that the carrier be able to qualify with them. Caliber restrictions aren't uncommon, either, meaning the agencies may impose a minimum or maximum caliber range, such as nothing below a .32 or .380 ACP, or no big bore Magnum revolvers, such as .41 or .44 (or greater) Magnum revolvers.

I seldom carried a secondary weapon myself when I was working full-time, and when I did, it was a S&W Bodyguard M649 (older .38 Spl model), because it was colder/wet weather, and it handily slipped into an outside pocket of my raincoats, worn over my suit/sport coats (plainclothes assignment). I usually worked with a partner, as part of a regularly assigned pair of plainclothes detectives, and we worked quite a bit on tactics if something nasty were to occur.

As a matter of fact, 2 of the other guys in the small bureau were also firearms instructors (as was I), so we did a lot of practice for situational scenarios we might experience in our regular assignments, while working in our instructor capacity. A couple of guys with whom I worked in the bureau who weren't instructors, still came by the range to occasionally get in extra firearms practice with us. Only one of those guys ever carried a secondary weapon. Lots of emphasis on primary and long guns, though.

Nowadays, while retired, unless I plan to go where I consider a belt gun to be more practical (because of a higher potential risk assessment, for example), I typically carry one or another of my 5-shot snubs or LCP's in a pocket holster as a retirement CCW. Every once in a while, I might add one of my NAA revolvers as an Onion Field type hideout/secondary weapon, if only because they're so convenient. Like most other smaller guns, they really take some practice in order to be able to use them, though.

So ... "more is better"?

In my opinion, for my needs?

No, not if we're talking about caliber and overall size. I simply don't care to lug around 2 "full-size fighting handguns" (60's/70's description ). For one thing, I don't frequent those places that my career experience may let me recognize as being somewhat high risk. I can pick and choose where I go nowadays.

For another thing, I no longer care to lug around ONE heavy FS handguns, let alone TWO of them. Smaller is fine for me, and if a .38 Spl or .380 isn't "enough", I have a bunch of compact & subcompact 9's, .40's & .45's from which to choose 9and some .357 Mag snubs, for that matter).

For yet another thing, fortunately I'm able to choose where I wish to live, and chose carefully when we bought our retirement home/property, looking over the county and communities where we were considering moving. It also helped to finally share with the realtor (who grew up in the area) my former career, and my interest in finding a "nice" area and community in which to buy. He steered us away from a LOT of places and areas, and toward areas which not only met our needs, but also contained a respectable number of active and retired public safety folks.

I do sometimes wonder about the private citizens who carry around more weapons, spare ammunition and other gear than I ever carried when working uniform patrol in some high "activity areas". Not my problem, though. I developed enough "hot spots" on my hips and lower back, and eventual discomfort, having to wear leather gun belts with extra gear, a vest, etc over the years. Not something I have to do anymore.

[Lohman446]

Brian has a lot of points above. Try not to look look like an easy target. Reasonable fitness helps but simply being alert helps more. I would add be willing to leave at the first hint of trouble. He talks about what is enough in regards to what you carry. I look at it at the limits of what you can expect to succeed against. Five determined, armed, competent attackers... I do not need to carry enough equipment for that. I am not Hawkeye, or Jason Bourne, or any other fictional character... No reason to equip myself like I have their abilities.

Drawing a concealed weapon is a desperate act I hope to never encounter. Needing a backup... Yeh I'm screwed

[briandg]

Five attackers? Depending on who they are, how stupid and reckless, clumsy, poorly focused, I think that a heck of a lot of us could drop every one of the five.

Stay focused, stay cool, avoid the obvious failures, and if you can't take everyone down, dead as rocks, in sequence, at least get wounds into the ones that worry you most. Start there and go as far as you can. Would you want to plow through a single opponent when you have two or three guns and a couple of unarmed men?

One skilled man against five hapless goons with no skills and their guns sideways can win. Look at the gaming. they do it all the time.

OTOH, am I skilled enough to take out five hapless goons with guns? Heck no. If I was up against five armed men who have even minimal skills, I will die. That's one of the reasons that I don't even carry backup magazines most of the time.

I once came into a situation with four men outside my house. One of the four had already threatened me, was coming at me to probably knock me down, I was genuinely concerned that I was about to get myself kicked to pieces, and after brain surgery, probably would have died. I drew at about ten -fifteen feet and he stopped.

I have no doubt that I could have taken all four of them if the situation had called for it. If they had been armed. If they had continued the threat, kept coming, etc, if the situation called for it. Even if they were all armed, they had no advantage and I had all the advantages.

If I was a completely rational person I would obviously drag every possible advantage I could into the field every time I left the door, but I am very well aware that there is almost a bigger chance of being struck by lightning than to be placed in a situation that I'm not equipped or capable to handle.

Part of staying safe is don't golf during a thunderstorm, another part is staying in the least threatening areas possible and carrying weapons that can help you in a dangerous situation.

Yes, I believe in carrying mace.

[Lohman446]

I specified determined, armed, and competent. I hope anyone who decides to attack me is none of those

[briandg]

The probability of you finding five armed, competent, determined men who you must fight against is more than even most swat teams could deal with.

I think that you could probably take care of five armed clowns from the sound of it.

If you are ever confronted by five armed clowns and you have to take them down, don't forget to get a video of it.

Since I really hate clowns, if I'm ever presented with five clowns who are attacking me, I'm going to put everything I've got into taking all five of them out. I'll probably even stomp their toes.

[Old Bill Dibble]

Five attackers? Sure. Maybe not all at once. After the movie live action sequence is over life goes on.

http://gunssavelives.net/self-defens...tiple-attacks/



What about four all at once?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9ycMq9_5BU

That 72 year old man brought a shotgun to a pistol fight and cleaned the floor with four wannabe gangsters. With no training and he had not even fired the gun in decades. In your face Clint Eastwood.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/32426383/n.../#.V9_cHK1rP-A

[shafter]

I can easily understand the logic of carrying a second, equal firearm as a backup, or even a smaller and more easily concealed one, but I can't imagine a scenario where it would ever make sense to reach for the second best first. That sounds like a classic example of someone overthinking something.

[849ACSO]

but I can't imagine a scenario where it would ever make sense to reach for the second best first. That sounds like a classic example of someone overthinking something

I think that was pretty well covered in this post:

My agency strictly forbids carrying any firearm other than issued sidearm with issued ammo and two mags; (if qualified) Remington 870 shotgun to be checked out before tour of duty; and (if qualified) Colt M4 patrol rifle to be checked out before tour of duty.

A buddy of mine remained a beat cop for the last 10 years of his career until forced (medical) retirement. His beat was the downtown business district where he became a fixture. After roll call he'd get a ride up to his beat where he'd first have coffee and then begin his foot patrol. He would usually begin his patrol just as the shopkeepers were opening up for the day's business.

One morning as he was ambling along from down the street he heard a woman scream, "I've been robbed!" My buddy looks down about half a block away and sees a woman chasing across the street after a man who was running under a full head of steam carrying a bank deposit bag. My buddy called out ordering the man to come back to him. With that, the perp turns on heel and is now charging my buddy in a bum rush. The perp launched himself mid-air knocking my buddy to the ground. My buddy is now flat on his back and the perp has him straddled.

They are now in a life and death struggle over the cop's sidearm. Meantime, the shopkeepers who've known my buddy for 10 years lock themselves inside their stores where they watch the two fight. BTW, no one called 911. The sirens bringing cavalry did finally come because of the cop's emergency tilt signal in his portable radio indicating he's down.

The two struggled for the gun and the holster was beginning to separate from the gun belt. The cop is 50 years old and has the mid-section to show for it. The perp is an athletic 28 year old illegal immigrant from Nigeria who'd been shot once before in a fight over a cop's gun. (Yes, he was supposed to have been deported.) The cop was starting to peter out and realized he would soon lose his gun to this madman. He began giving up. So, with his left hand he dug deep into his left front pocket and pulled from it a .45 cal two-shot derringer he'd carried for over 20 years. Suddenly, he let loose both barrels from the derringer held at point-blank range just below the perp's rib cage. And just as suddenly the fight stopped with the perp now slumped over the cop.

No one ever mentioned the cop's derringer as being in violation of policy. And, thus, to answer your question, that's the purpose of a back-up gun.

And that's a prefect example of when reaching for the "second best" is the right thing to do.

I can recite an incident in which a state trooper had a violator in his/her car during a routine car stop, and once the trooper figured out there was an arrest warrant for the violator, the violator reached over to try to take the trooper's gun away. A short reach to the ankle with the off hand while the strong hand was trying to keep the service pistol in its holster ended the problem. Without the second gun, that may have very well ended differently.

If you've ever laid on your holstered gun, with someone on top of you trying to do you in, and you couldn't get that gun out, you'd understand. Otherwise, probably not.........

[shafter]

Yes, it's true. That is a good example of using a backup gun to good advantage. However, the officer's main gun was out of the fight. He never would have gone for the derringer if he still had access to his primary.

[WC145]

Yes, it's true. That is a good example of using a backup gun to good advantage. However, the officer's main gun was out of the fight. He never would have gone for the derringer if he still had access to his primary.

Well sure, and if I'd never had that flat I wouldn't have used my spare tire. We'd all prefer to not have to use our insurance policies, but we have them for those times when things don't go the way we'd like them to. Every example I've ever seen of someone using their BUG was because they couldn't use their primary weapon for some reason.

However, that rule is not set in stone. As I wrote in my earlier post, my old BUG is now my primary when I'm at work by necessity but I keep a full size pistol (one that would normally be my main carry gun) in my vehicle. If a situation arose that I could stop with my snubby or if I had no choice but to use it, I would, but my preference would be to get to my vehicle, gun up, and then do what I had to to protect the family members and friends that I work with along with the patients, their family members, and visitors.

[A J]

Good topic.

When I served in Iraq, just about everyone was issued both an M4 rifle and an M9 pistol. Fortunately, I never had to fire either in anger, but I always carried both outside the wire. My personal preference was to hide my M9 in an entrenching tool pouch in case my rifle was wrestled from me in a crowd.

As a civilian, I never carry a back up gun. My carry gun is a .38 snub-nosed revolver, 5 shots, no extra ammo.

[B.A.]

Guys,

Most of the examples mentioned here seem to involve some form of LEO or military needing and using a BUG. And I suppose they are the people most likely to need one.

Briandg
I live in the suburbs of a major city with the risks involved in that. Muggings, burglaries, nasty stray dogs, aggressive beggars, drunks, junkies etc same as anywhere else, I suppose. Snakes, rats, bats and crows are the main wildlife but nothing that really warrants a firearm. Mosquitoes are the main killers so I use bug spray.

I've gone hiking in the bush many times but never needed to pull a gun then either. Although I felt much better for having it, I'm not sure how much good it would have done me against anything large enough to be a threat and large enough for me to hit with a pistol.

A few years ago however, I ran a mine way out in the sticks up north and felt the gun was a necessity rather than a prudent precaution. The mining town was rough, to say the least, the mining site was wild and isolated, the frequent drives to the main city in the region were long with dangerous traffic, risk of breakdowns and reasonably high risk of hijackings. Once in town, there was a lot of cash and valuables to be handled.

In view of my situation, I feel that a 357 mag revolver pretty much covers my needs. As did the 9 mm semi I used to have.

Oh, and if you ever get attacked by those five vicious clowns, go for the juggler.

[Skans]

Are you kidding me? I already have to carry keys, wallet, cell phone and gun and now reading glasses. It's not like I have a purse to put all of this crap in! I assure you that if I had to carry a back up gun too, there is a very good chance that I would forget about it and leave it somewhere that would make the 6:00 news.

[Borz]

If I have any inkling I'm going to be in a situation that a pistol, knife and size 13 boot can't solve, I'm going to tactically GTFO.