Backup gun: more is better?

[B.A.]

Ladies and gentlemen,

I've read numerous threads on the subject of BUGs and the proponents most commonly recommend a small pocket gun in semi auto or a j-frame revolver in an ankle holster or boot or SOB or similar. Generally a smaller gun than the primary weapon.
My observation and/or question is, if your main defensive carry gun is not enough to do the job in the perceived situation/scenario, why rely on something smaller to finish it off once you're in a situation that is most likely worse than when the confrontation began and you had to pull a gun in the first place? Assuming you're still alive, of course.

Personally, I would have thought you'd need more fire power rather than less?
If I were carrying a double stack semi auto, possibly with extra mag(s) and still couldn't neutralize the threat, I would want bigger rather than smaller as backup?

Off topic perhaps, but it's my thread, so make this a secondary observation/comment.
Where I live, I can't have more than one hand gun without even more hassle than there already is, so I went by the logic spelled out above and switched altogether from a 9 mm 14+1 semi auto to a six shooter 357 but I'd love to have the option of both, with the semi auto as primary and if it gets really bad, bring out the big wheel. Not that I find it's very practical or likely or even realistic, just if the need or the urge ever arose. But then, I'm not a big BUG believer so the question is more for those who are.

I chose to switch not only for the above reason but also because semis are just a bit more fiddly with higher maintenance. The wheel gun is stainless, flawless at the range (so was the semi, so no real difference there) easier to shoot (yes, easier for me, 38 spl certainly but even with 357 it was so much better in my hands and my eyes with those sights) more powerful and just so much cooler. My buddy at the range drooled all over it with a rather sad look at his standard semi 9mm.

Anyone else ever thought along these lines?

[K_Mac]

To answer your last question first, no.

In my opinion, a backup gun is an absolute last-ditch choice, or a "get off me gun." It make no sense to carry more than one gun and then use the lesser to protect your self or loved ones, keeping the primary one in reserve. Most gunfights are over very quickly. The one who puts rounds on target in a hurry usually wins. The cool factor notwithstanding, I will (and do) take the 9 mm over the SS .357 for concealed carry every day.

[Lohman446]

While rare there are very few revolver malfunctions that you have any hope of "fixing" in a firefight.

[B.A.]

Fair point, K Mac and I agree. As far as weapons preference, it's horses for courses of course. I never felt "undergunned" with my semi, I just like the revolver better. And both the laziness and cool factors play a part. Silly, I know, for an old man but I'm still a child, or at least childish, at heart.
The question was more for those who carry back ups and if I understand you correctly, you don't, but if you did, you would go bigger primary, smaller backup. In a last ditch thing, I would prefer not to rely on a pen knife, that's all. Turning the priorities a bit upside down, if you want.

[B.A.]

Sorry Lohman,
This wasn't intended as a revolver vs semi question. I'm wondering if bug believers ever considered carrying bigger rather than smaller.
Example : I carry pepper spray as a first response to a minor threat. I carry a gun if things get really bad.

[K_Mac]

B.A. as you said, I generally don't carry a backup gun. I more often carry a backup high capacity magazine for my 9. When I do carry one, it is a Ruger LCP, 6+1 of 380. I sometimes just carry the LCP with a spare mag, so I don't feel it is an inconsequential weapon in a pinch. Much better than a penknife or harsh words.

[Lohman446]

I was not intending it as such and made an error there (the heading stuck in my head more than the body of your post) and was simply defending the concept of carrying a back-up gun. For the record I think the idea is drastically overrated and do not - for things to go so wrong that I could not handle it with my primary firearm... chances are a back-up is not going to change the equation.

More on subject to what you were asking. If I believed in carrying multiple firearms (or for that matter extra magazines) I could make the argument that one should be loaded with something like Underwood's Xtreme Penetrator which is more likely to defeat body armor or barriers. If you have failed to succeed with your primary weapon (or the first magazine) one could see the argument for changing things up somehow.

[K_Mac]

Example : I carry pepper spray as a first response to a minor threat. I carry a gun if things get really bad.

I also carry a small pepper spray at all times. It is a good to have options. If things "get really bad" and lethal force is required, you want to stop the threat immediately. Use whatever gives you the greatest chance of doing that.

[JERRYS.]

for many people carrying one gun is too much effort for some reason. two guns will never happen even with the majority of ccw holders.

a second gun is not an instead of gun, its a just in case gun. meant to shoot and scoot, not stay and play. that's why they are often referred to as back up guns. they are more often than not considerably smaller than one's primary gun.

[g.willikers]

It can be hard to keep yer pants up just carrying one gun.
And probably not something most of us would ever really need.
But a second gun might come in handy to arm another person.

[B.A.]

K Mac and Lohman,

Thanks very much for your input and we seem to be more or less on the same page in regards to bugs. Personally, I don't have the option but even if I did, it would be a hassle carrying a 9 as well as the 357 so I don't think I ever would, under normal or even extraordinary circumstances. And I certainly see the point of a smaller bug as the last escape but still doubt the possibility or scenario where you might actually utilize it. 380 to 9 isn't a big step down even if capacity is reduced and space/comfort isn't dramatically handicapped.

So I guess the old wisdom still stands. Bugs are last refuges as smaller weapons but larger than harsh words.
Only personal reference I have is a friend who had a home invasion and he had to use two pistols, one failing while firing from his balcony. But that was a freak incident not many people ever need to worry about.

No firm believers in bugs have yet replied, though, so I'd love to hear their side. Just thought I'd throw the idea out there because if I ever thought I'd need a bug, I'd probably prefer big rather than small.

[T. O'Heir]

Your ankle or boot is a really bad place to carry any firearm. Works in movies and on TV, but not so much in the real world. Too hard to get at in a hurry. However, your question is one of size.
Think in terms of a .38/.357 'J' frame vs any handgun chambered in something bigger. A 2" Smith(only an example.) M642 weighs 15.5 ounces and is 6.3" long. A 2.5" Smith M686 weighs 34 ounces and is 7.5" long. Which one would you rather have hanging off your ankle or stuffed in a boot? Primarily the weight that matters.
Better to have a second mag. Mind you, if you can't fix the mess you're in with 15 rounds, neither a second mag nor a whole other firearm is going to help.

[Old Bill Dibble]

Back up guns have a popularity among law enforcement and the military even though they fill a remarkably different role in each. I will try to contrast this with several different ways to employ non-work related carry guns.

In the military world, in a combat zone all soldiers have a long gun or a larger weapon system as the primary. Some soldiers carry a pistol to provide a back up. The back up is in case the primary fails or god forbid you run out of ammo. You then transition to a pistol. Pistols suck for combat so if it comes down to it the end is likely near. Pistols are also popular with certain ranks and positions so that the long gun can be left behind and the senior can attend a meeting without being completely disarmed. Most soldiers don't carry a pistol unless their weapon system is very large, they operate remotely or are of a senior rank. There are other exceptions but that is most of them.

In the civilian world for police work many police officers carry a backup gun. Nearly always this gun is concealed and of smaller size than the primary. This is not to be confused with supplemental weapons like rifles and shotguns. The backup serves a number of purposes. Mainly the idea is that if the primary fails or runs out of ammo you can go to the back up. Other (rightly or wrongly) reasons include:

- Officer is somehow captured and disarmed
- Officer leaves his primary gun behind in a secured area
- Officer loses his weapon in a struggle

The Miami shootout is often used as an example where a backup was used with predictable results. There have been plenty of other cases though.

Security guards sometimes carry back up for the same reasons as police. Hunter guides carry a back up as a safety, convenience and speed in close up work. Mostly for safety.

Everyone else in the world can pick and choose their reasoning for carrying a back up. My point being that "ammo" is only one of many possible reasons to carry a BUG and there are plenty of other reasons for it.

[MandolinMan]

I don't carry a BUG. That being said, I nearly always carry a spare magazine or two. I've often heard it said that the fastest reload is a second gun. So rather than carrying a spare mag it may make more sense to carry a second gun. Though its much easier to carry a spare mag than a spare gun (unless that gun is quite small).

[Snyper]

Anyone else ever thought along these lines?

Your logic is flawed.

The back up isn't there to take over when your primary weapon is out of ammo.
It's there in case of malfunctions, or loss of the main weapon.

I personally know a Highway Patrolman whose life was saved by his Walther PPK in an ankle holster when a drunk took his duty pistol during a struggle in a parking lot.

The perp died as a result, so the back-up was quite adequate.

[B.A.]

Thanks for all the input, guys.
I may well have approached the dilemma from a personal and perhaps not so common point of view, given that I don't live in the USA and therefore might have a slightly different angle on it. All points acknowledged all the same and they make a lot of sense given the contexts and conditions.
I certainly agree on ankle or boot carry being a not so good way of carry, although it has been proven effective in the ppk example above. Hard to reach, awkward and very susceptible to being dropped or otherwise compromised in any kind of footrace, fight etc. And certainly not a larger size gun like my suggestion.
So it looks like my logic is flawed as far as larger backup goes and I will take your input to heart.

[B.A.]

And Snyper,
Yes, I see your point entirely about the malfunction or otherwise losing your primary. Thanks

[Mastrogiacomo]

It depends on the situation. Folks that drive/ride armored cars will have a bug. It's clearly not allowed but many will risk it due to the danger of the job. That aside, I don't carry a bug because if I needed to use the gun for self defense, I feel like having more than one makes it look like I was looking for a gun fight. I try to use the best gun for the situation, probably like many gun owners do.

Laura

[B.A.]

Mastrogiacomo,
That's a valid point and I wasn't aware of that angle. However, if it wasn't specified, I think we were discussing more of a sort of concealed carry, at least on the secondary bug.
In my specific situation, concealment would be slightly so so, as it's OK to carry concealed and no one would think much of it if it showed a bit. If they even noticed.
It would be more difficult to conceal a bigger/larger gun, of course, but going by my flawed theory, I could travel with primary on my right hip, bug on a cross draw with a light jacket cross country and nobody would give it even a second look.
I can't do that, since we can only have the one, but nobody has ever been any the wiser with the ones I've had.

[Wethepeople01]

There are a few key reasons why carrying a BUG is a responsible and sound idea. We can never know the time, place and method of attack. You may be standing, seated or whatever. Depending on where your BUG is holstered, it may be easier to access at the time then your primary EDC. For instance, if I'm seated and wearing an ankle rig I know I can reach my BUG (A S&W Airweight) much quicker. When carrying in a front or even back pocket, it's easier to more discreetly reach the backup than the larger EDC - which I tend to wear on the strong side hip. This all depends on how the attack goes down. You may be held at knife or gunpoint in very close quarters. It pays to have that other option. The BUG can be dropped after the gun is emptied and you can immediately go for the second gun (or vice versa!).

Continuing.. Murphy's Law holds that anything that can go wrong in a gun fight WILL go wrong in a gun fight. Your EDC may malfunction, you may accidentally drop your magazine (I've seen this happen to a well trained fellow LEO), you may fumble the reload.. Anything.. Remember, this is a fight for your life. You will hear your heart beat out of your chest, have tunnel vision, auditory occlusion, loss of fine motor skills, etc. Let's not forget the profuse sweating and blood. Your BUG will keep you in the fight because you can't rely upon your primary EDC 100% AND in some cases you may be able to employ it FASTER than reloading. I've worked plainclothes and have practiced using both weapons in conjunction with one another extensively. I hope that my own two cents gives you or someone else something to consider. It's entirely up to you..

[James K]

Even when I was a deputy sheriff, I never carried a backup gun. In uniform, I carried a Model 19; out of uniform, a Model 60, 3". i was/am pretty good with both, and could reload pretty fast with a speed loader. I never considered the extra trouble of carrying a BUG worth the trouble, and never had any problems with either gun. (I will note that I never was in a gun fight; I admit that I might feel different if I had been.)

On one of the sites, I once read a post from some guy who carried at all times two big Glocks, two little Glocks (he didn't give the model numbers), four spare loaded magazines for each size, a Bowie knife, a blackjack, and nunchuks. I don't think I could have moved with all that weight on me, let alone been able to engage in a gunfight. I don't know what he did in the shower or other places, but I didn't choose to follow that idea.

I may be wrong, but I can't help but feel that at least some of the posters are, shall we say, a bit short on experience, in part because self-defense shootings and gun fights (even by police) are pretty darned rare. I doubt that as many folks have actually engaged in gunfights as they might lead us to believe and are simply repeating what they have read, usually written by folks who also have never been in a real gunfight, either. As noted above, I was never in any gunfight, but I have been close enough and much prefer not to get any closer, no matter what gun I have or how many.

Jim

[Old Bill Dibble]

On one of the sites, I once read a post from some guy who carried at all times two big Glocks, two little Glocks (he didn't give the model numbers), four spare loaded magazines for each size, a Bowie knife, a blackjack, and nunchuks. I don't think I could have moved with all that weight on me, let alone been able to engage in a gunfight. I don't know what he did in the shower or other places, but I didn't choose to follow that idea.

I have a feeling that may have been tongue in cheek or a troll. Unless it was John Wick. I have never heard of anyone carrying such a load in real life. Short of keestering I don't know where he would fit all that stuff.

[Snyper]

I certainly agree on ankle or boot carry being a not so good way of carry, although it has been proven effective in the ppk example above.

Actually the Patrolman didn't really like the ankle holster either, but Dept policy stated their back up guns could not be visible when they were in uniform so he had very few options.

[B.A.]

Thanks for even more input.
Rotfl on the super backup system. I never leave home without my nunchucks, a fly swatter and my handy jousting lance.

Phone, pepper spray and side arm, jokes aside, and I usually forget at least two of them at home.

Murphy's law is just that. We can't prepare for everything. But we can at least prepare for what we can reasonably predict might possibly happen and there's where the point lies. We're all responsible for our own fate and in many cases the fates of some of those around us, so it's up to each and everyone to decide what's reasonable to them.

Jim K mentioned experience in gunfights. I have none apart from some vicious encounters with paper, steel and other targets. I know some who do, notably a guy who's had not one but two real life shootouts, another friend mistook his toe for a bad guy when making his gun 'safe' after shooting at the range, and one guy who got mauled by a lion (fire arm not really applicable at full contact range against fully grown male lion), so to each his own and choose wisely.

I got a lot of help and useful advice from this thread and thank all those who contributed.

[TailGator]

I once read a post from some guy who carried at all times two big Glocks, two little Glocks (he didn't give the model numbers), four spare loaded magazines for each size, a Bowie knife, a blackjack, and nunchuks.

He drowned.