I have this cannon can anyone tell me about it?

[Bill DeShivs]

Toy cannon were a staple for kids from the late 1900s until WW 1.
Go to www.cannon-mania.com and ask them about your cannon.
BTW- we made small cannon in the school macine shops in the early 1970s, with permission of the teachers. We even used them to start track meets and football games. 1-1/2" bores.
They made toy cannon that shot bullets and shotgun shells in the early 1900s. Black powder cannon were commonplace. In the early 1970s you could buy potassium nitrate and powdered sulphur at your local drugstore-even Walgreens. Barbecue charcoal+potassium nitrate+ sulphur= black powder.

[Prairidog]

They used to sale something similar at firworks stands when i was a kid.I have an original from the 60s but they still sale them.They use a tube of Bang=zite and a flint striker,add water and strike it and boom.Mine has a base on it though,with ribber wheels.Canastoga cannon?

[Bill DeShivs]

Carbide cannon are completely different. This is a black powder cannon.

[James K]

Anyone ever hear of a Winchester Model 98?

Before you spend a lot of time in the books, I will tell you that it was Winchester's cannon. They made them from 1903 up into the 1930's, with the last being chrome plated and equipped with rubber tires. The description says it had a 12-inch rolled steel barrel, cylinder bored, with a carriage having two 3 5/8" steel wheels at the front end. It was 10 gauge, and was for blanks, though the company said it would stand up to any 10 gauge black powder load.

The carriage was japanned, the barrel blued, and the breech blackened. Length overall was 17 inches, height 7 1/4 inches, width 7 inches. My source doesn't say how many were made in total, but over ten thousand had been sold by 1915, so there are a fair number out there, and I have seen a couple, usually just sitting on a shelf at a gun shop or, in one case, a restaurant.

I have done some checking, but I don't know the legal status. They are not muzzle loaders, so presumably they would come under the NFA in some way, maybe as an "any other weapon". I can't find that they have been put on the curio and relic list, but maybe I missed it.

Most of my information and the picture are from Harold Williamson's "Winchester, the Gun That Won the West", a company history.

Jim

[Bill DeShivs]

Jim
They are being made again-have been for years. They are not regulated at all-I don't know why, but they are completely legal.
www.cannon-mania.com has them.

[James K]

I knew about modern muzzle loading cannon, but those firing shot shells are "interesting." I can't believe the Feds haven't jumped on those "terrorist weapons" in one way or another. (I just hope they aren't reading this or they will think of some way to make something else illegal.)

Jim

[megabyte]

This small cannon is larger than 10 gauge (bore size) and has no trunions so im at a loss as to how this cannon mounts. I dont buy the childs cannon or a blank firing device as a smaller device could be used with the same effect. Its possible that it was mounted vertically for fireworks or morter activity? I see alot of professional fireworks companies use multiple verticle tubes to launch their rockets. But why use such a large diameter cylinder unless your launching something powerfull. Its flat on the fuse end consistant with a vertical launch or maybe mounting into a castle hole. I heard once a castle owner used shotguns that looked like cannons in his porticulous right next to the gate or sometimes within the area between gate one and gate two. Used to be they pored pitch down holes in the upper ceiling. I have heard about cannons in the side walls firing into unwelcome guests. Invite them in and lock the doors behind then blast away. Reload? Something would have to be behind the cannon to stop the recoil for wall use. I donno im out of ideas. The pictures someone submitted about a winchester cannon dont look anything like this device.

[Bill DeShivs]

Why don't you just go to www.cannon-mania.com and find out what it is?
Then you can stop postulating about it's romantic past-or is that what you are afraid of?

[RJay]

You know, it does look just like the one Harry Morgan used in the Battle of Brandywine against Hap Arnold.

[megabyte]

I sent pictures to cannon mania no response by the way the website looks im not sure anyone works there. Thats my personal opinion. Im kinda interested why nobody knows what this thing is. Im starting to get the feeling im going to have to call my insurance agent and up my antiques coverage.

[Bill DeShivs]

Try here: http://www.go2gbo.com/forums//index.php/board,88.0.html

[RJay]

I'm starting to believe Megabybe is a troll! Other wise why would he keep coming back to the same thing after he's been told a dozen times what he has?

[Scorch]

megabyte-
Is that a picture in your signature line?

[oldbillthundercheif]

It's Michael Wittman, a panzer super-commander who finally ate it at Viller-Bocage after his masterful assault was broken by throwing hundreds of our tanks into his deathtrap. A fine tactician, but just another lowlife nazi bastard when you get right down to it... like Rommel, but with less power and name-recognition.

[RsqVet]

Jim ----

On the winchester cannons the chamber is 2 7/8, which I think is discontinued more or less other than blanks, plus it always felt to me like they machine enough of a "choke" into the barrel to make a live shell a very bad idea, though I have never mesured this on my (new) winchester cannon, or relative to the older ones that had what looked like slightly larger holes at the muzzle... or just thiner barrels overall.

The breach blook also looks not very strong.

I have one, fun noise maker but cleaning is of course a PITA, only complaint is the hammer / lanyard attachment is cheap and crappy so drilled through the hammer and put a nice stainless shackle on it.

As to the pic megabyte posted, all I can do is laugh, yeah it's a cool old relic... a noise maker, that's all, go up what ever insurance you want ait't gona make it more valuable, have been to enought flea markets to see this type of behavior before.

[megabyte]

Reason im asking is because I want to know. Another cannon website seems to think it might be for cleaning out smoke stakes in the 1920's. Nobody seems to know for sure.

Micheal Wittman was a natural born hunter. I wouldnt call him a nazi but as a member of the SS he sure did believe in the party line. Try reading a book written about him called "Tiger Ace" great book for military tactitions. I use his avatar because Im Micheal Wittman in a game called "operation art of war" forwhich im the number three ranked player in the world. Ah to make money playing video games for a living. Seriously if you have the time read the book.

[pipoman]

Given a day and a metal lathe I could make a dozen just like this. 2 years in the ground under the eves of my barn and you couldn't tell the difference. This thread has has been viewed over 800 times by people who have spent their lives going to gun shows, collecting every firearm and military object ever made, it is safe to say that some of the lookers are experts in cannons and ancient armaments. For you to disregard everything in this thread and still believe you have a gold mine is no different than people who believe grandma's china is worth thousands even though nary a china expert is interested in buying it at any price (happens all the time). Kid yourself all you want, it doesn't change the fact that even if it was some obscure highly valuable relic if the provenance was known and provable, without such provable provenance nobody but a fool would pay more than $20-$30 for it, and that just to play with it. I learned a long time ago that 'one of a kind' is the kiss of death in collectibles. Collectors (those are the people who pay big money for rare items) pay for name brands, makers marks, undeniable provenance, cataloged verification, etc. They don't waste vast amounts of money on speculation nor do they kid themselves or let others influence their buying decision with wild unsubstantiated stories.

Let's see if we can agree on a few things. 1. Somebody made this. 2. It was likely an individual not a company as a company would have put their name on it. 3. Probably not a known craftsman because he too probably would have put his name or makers mark on it. 4. It is simple in design 5. It could be easily reproduced in quanity 6. It is not a salesman's or company sample as it is not detailed enough and wouldn't be functional as it is in a larger scale 7. You have no idea the items history. All of these factors point to something made by a machinist or school kid as a toy (adult or child).

Edit: A better example than the china for this site would be great grandpa's Crescent double barrel. It is over a hundred years old therefore priceless right? While it may be priceless to the beholder because of the sentimental value, it doesn't change the fact that the gun would scarcely bring $100 from anyone on this website. This happens all the time here in Harley's forum, some of the people go away disappointed but understand others go away mumbling, "those guys were just trying to rip me off" even though nobody even offered to buy the old tomato stake.

[megabyte]

You know your trying to treat me like a child PIPOMAN and nothing you have said makes me believe your solution is the right one. What is fact is two different web sites this one and Graybeard Outdoors says two different things they say its a stack gun for cleaning out smokestacks in factories in the 20's. Their solution quite frankly fits better than yours. Im not a newbie to antiques and have a policy from Lloyds of London for three paintings in my house. I also am no newbie to militaria and can say without boasting that I have the finest Nazi collection on the east coast only one person in California has a better one. I also have one of the finest collections of J Edger Hoover documents ever assembled including personal letters to his Mistress Miss Daisy (his secretary). So when you want to see who can urinate the farthest I think I will beat you everytime. Now thats a fact believe that. Sorry everyone else I just had to beat down this punk some his manorism and lack of cuth just irritated me to no end.

[pipoman]

Attack the poster not the merit of the post huh? I frankly don't care what you want to believe. And hey with your L of L policy you are saying, "Im starting to get the feeling im going to have to call my insurance agent and up my antiques coverage." when you are claiming, "I also am no newbie to militaria [sic] and can say without boasting that I have the finest Nazi collection on the east coast only one person in California has a better one. I also have one of the finest collections of J Edger Hoover documents ever assembled including personal letters to his Mistress Miss Daisy (his secretary)." it is just laughable. Assuming it is some sort of industrial tool the value is still negligible pocket change compared to your claimed trove. Hey at least I didn't accuse you of being a troll as someone earlier did. Good luck with your early retirement.

[megabyte]

PIPOMAN I am retired and money isnt a problem hense the collections. But that assumes I bought everything I collect. Which is not true in the least bit. But I do have some experience in collections that nobody has ever seen before thats why im here trying to learn about what I have or not have. It would not be the first time I have researched something that has no monetary value. I simply donot know what this item is and basically want to find out. Its been my experience when nobody can figure out what something is then its something worth something. Of course if nobody wants the item then it has no value. But I really dont care about the value im researching the history. Ive got a room full of items I simply dont know the history to. I have a stack of medieval swords that came from the nazi occupation of yugoslavia. So im trying to learn as much as I can about metallurgy. Im a bit off subject here but basically I do the same thing as the experts here for German WWII collectibles on their sites. I never talk down to the most basic of questions or assume because I know the difference between one dagger and another that everyone else does also. So I would recommend you get the chip off your shoulder and calmdown or simply dont answer questions fair enough?

[RJay]

I think this thread should be locked, however if the moderator does decide to lock the thread I would like to add one more little comment then I promise I will go home and be good. Something smells in Denmark. I'm ou'ter here, Vaya con Dios

[Bill DeShivs]

J. Edgar's "mistress" was his assistant, but his assistant wasn't female!

[pipoman]

Look, I have over 800 posts on this site you can go look at. You will find not only do I not have a chip but I have chipped in my $.02 many times. Re-read my 1st post to this thread. What in that post is rude? Which of the 7 points I made do you disagree with? Now you may disagree with my conclusion but that doesn't make me rude.

I too have been an antiquer for a long time. I have bought several collections and estates. I do not itemize when doing this because everyone, especially older family members have heard tales about the pricelessness of this item or that when often that item is only priceless because nobody will pay a price for it. The reference to the Crescent shotgun is a valid one, a family double barrel is more often a Crescent than a Parker or an ElCee though everyone has illusions that their family gun is worth a small fortune.

Again, I don't care what you want to believe, nor do I care what you think of me. Maybe your item is Captain Hook's bug, I hope it is extremely valuable. Your refusal to even acknowledge that anyone who has offered an opinion here might be right and continuing down this path of mysterious ancient origins is what brought me to post in this thread the first time. I read the thread a month or so ago, then returned and this thread was still at the top. Your statement that such an item couldn't possibly be a child's toy, just too dangerous indicates a person who is not very old. As has been stated several times in this thread, black powder toy cannons were popular toys in years gone by. You have essentially told everyone on this thread, "you are wrong, wrong, wrong. I don't know the answer, but your explanation is absurd!" So there you go.

[megabyte]

Are you implying Hoover was gay? Thats a load of bunk started by the opposite political party after he died as they wouldnt seriously say that while he was alive. Hoover would have a detractors birthday erased for a lesser comment.

Bill
Have the threat locked? Well in a free society you have to have free thought unless your from Denmark like you imply maybe they dont allow free thought there. Usually when someone says lock the thread they simply cannot hold up their end of the conversation which is ok but dont imply everyone else here is stupid because you cannot respond to the questions. I promiss you Bill the next post will be in crayons and have lots of pictures.

Pipoman
800+ posts and so now we must believe everything you say because I have 5 posts I couldnt be possibly saying anything intelligent. Do you realize what your saying makes you look foolish and everything you say after that is just disregarded? I remember taking tests in highschool when you saw the question that started blah blah blah ALWAYS does something you always answered false. I kept on reading because I like picking on you and found more to make fun of like:"...Your refusal to even acknowledge that anyone who has offered an opinion here might be right and continuing down this path of mysterious ancient origins is what brought me to post in this thread the first time. I read the thread a month or so ago, then returned and this thread was still at the top." Nope sorry I just didnt like your opinion it was rather childlike and not believable.
Im not very old? Thanks I feel old I have underwear so old its made by jordache remember those man do I feel old. Did you ever play with those toy cannons as a child? During the 1800's? Now put your teeth back in gramps and get me a link to a picture of those child cannons otherwise I dont buy it. I would settle for that B-17 junior had parked out back behind the nazi pillbox with working MG-34's yeah like I believe they let kids nurse on flamethrower nozzles at feeding time. Do you really want me to believe junior played with hand grenades as a way of learning how to fight jerry in the upcoming wars? Man I could go on with you all night long. Stop watching reruns of Lawrence Welk on PBS and get me a picture of these child cannons then you will have something to show me up with.

[Bill DeShivs]

Megabyte
Yes, J. Edgar was gay. The History Channel (I believe) even had a show about it.
Perhaps you should read my posts again. You have your posters mixed up.
I'm 52 years old, and yes-I played with muzzle loading cannon when I was a kid. We made them in high school machine shop. Most were nicer than yours.
Because something is rusted does not mean it is hundreds of years old.
It's obvious that you have your mind made up, and no one is going to confuse you with facts.
BTW- you are pretty condescending to people who try to help you, and you get confused easily, and you should buy new underwear.