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April 7, 2007, 03:01 PM | #101 |
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You know it's funny watching liberals, when confronted with a dangerous situation, and no alternatives.
I'm teaching in an area where bad people are moving into a nice area. The other teachers have fear in their eyes, with no solution. Kind of reminds me of what lambs must be like, but, I think the lambs have more guts. The terror controls their lives, and, they have no control over the situation, or even hope of defense. Very sad, but, the product of their beliefs... They have about a 1 in 17 chance of being a victim of a violent crime,,....and no chance of self-defense. S |
April 7, 2007, 04:11 PM | #102 |
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"that also, was Christ's message." Ah, let me say that this was just an assumption, as I'm not very knowledgeable on the bible or religion. I should know better...and i guess now i'll have to turn the other cheek. Also, I'm not a pacifist but do see the honor in someone having values that are steadfast, even if i don't hold those values myself.
I think JohnKSa's point is pretty accurate, that Paranoia is mostly about the person's attitude. Ditto with Socrates point about not being willing to live scared in a bad neighborhood. I may be a liberal in some ways, but you can bet I'll fight back if anyone pushes too hard. I would point out that some "liberals" actually support CCW and write letters that encourage other dems to oppose gun control bills. Pro-gun dems won a couple of govenorships and house seats last election, so the situation isn't black and white. I also have a hard time understanding those who live in fear, but don't take steps to protect themselves and their families...even if they are pacifists. I have to admit I like having my gun on me whether or not i'm in a high risk environment. I just like my gun. I still can respect someone who moves to a safe place and choses not to carry. There's a lot of history and custom behind the notion of a person's arms being constant companions. Many modern cultures have lost this, but maybe its just bred in the bone for some of us. Not paraniod, but comfortable and ready. |
April 7, 2007, 05:33 PM | #103 |
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Thought I'd revisit this thread. I carry and I carry often. As I sit here with my Glock 22 on my left hip, I'm glad to see that many others feel the same way I do. Its not paranoia, its being prepared.
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April 7, 2007, 10:19 PM | #104 | ||
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Mike
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April 7, 2007, 10:19 PM | #105 |
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Where did this pacifist stuff come in??? first a definition....from Wikipedia:
"Pacifism is the opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes. Pacifism covers a spectrum of views ranging from the belief that international disputes can and should be peacefully resolved, to absolute opposition to the use of violence, or even force, under any circumstances. Pacifism may be based on principle or pragmatism. Principled (or Deontological) pacifism is based on beliefs that either war, deliberate lethal force, violence or any force or coercion is morally wrong. Pragmatic (or Consequential) pacifism does not hold to such an absolute principle but considers there to be better ways of resolving a dispute than war or considers the benefits of a war to be outweighed by the costs." I consider myself a pacifist ...a PRAGMATIC pacifist......truly, I am..and have no problem keeping Roscoe by my side at all times. Why? We aren't talking about a "dispute" here. I'm not gonna go blast my neighbor cuz he put up a fence that's one foot on my property line. However...some folks keep a weapon on them at all times and that does not necessarily conflict with all forms of pacifism....Pacifism is primarily about settling disputes....and when a meth head comes blasting through your door at "o-dark-thirty"...that's not a "dispute" folks...that's violent unprovoked aggression with possible intent to kill me....and my vote is he loses and I'll do whatever I can to ensure that. Game over. |
April 7, 2007, 10:26 PM | #106 | |
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As for me...I don't feel I HAVE to....I WANT to. Would you get a life insurance policy that didn't cover April every year? |
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April 7, 2007, 10:42 PM | #107 | |
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Furthermore, if the attacker has an accomplice, the accomplice generally bears the responsibility for the death of his fellow criminal--to the point that he can be prosecuted for it even if someone else pulls the trigger. Clearly the law holds the CRIMINAL responsible not only for his own actions, but also for others' actions that are the legal response to his actions. His blood is truly "on his own head" (and perhaps also on the head of his accomplice.) A defender has a responsibility to stay within the law, if he does that then the law absolves him of criminal responsibility and sometimes even civil liability. Am I arguing against taking personal responsibility for one's own actions? Absolutely not! I'm only pointing out that one needn't agonize over the possible results of prudent actions taken in legal self-defense.
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April 7, 2007, 10:50 PM | #108 | |||
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If one reasons that all life is sacred, it is not an illogical jump to say that no human has the right to end any life - only G-d has that right. I am pretty much done with this topic. Your local Quaker meeting could explain a religiously based coherent system of values that includes a rejection of violence. They have strongly rejected violence for something 300 years (they are not some "liberal" manifestation of the late 20th century). Actually, any of the traditional peace churches, the Church of the Brethen, the Mennonites, and the Society of Friends could lay this out for you. Incidentally, they all come to this position from the New Testament. Mike
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April 7, 2007, 11:00 PM | #109 |
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Officer: "So what happened here?"
Neighbor: "Well as I understand it the meth head crashed through the door and Johnny Brainiac here started trying to explain to him the sanctity of life, and "axiomatic values", and transient something or other...." Officer: "Nuff said. Guess Johnny proved his point, now will someone scrape what's left of him off the wall? And don't forget that grey spongy part over there." |
April 7, 2007, 11:03 PM | #110 | |
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Note that I am not arguing that responsibility implies moral wrong - the responsibility of killing someone may be a morally correct action. I am just arguing that you can't walk away from the responsibility. Mike
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April 7, 2007, 11:11 PM | #111 | |
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I will not be prey.
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April 7, 2007, 11:35 PM | #112 | |||||||
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If one believes that the point of self-defense is killing then what you're saying would follow. But killing is not the point at all. The point of self-defense is preventing loss of life. That's why one can not keep using deadly force after the attacker breaks off. The law doesn't give you the right to kill, only the right to stop violent attacks. If that results in killing, the responsibility for that death falls on the head of the attacker. His blood is on his own head. Quote:
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1. No human has the right to end any life. 2. It's ok to let a human end a life even when it is possible to prevent it. It's far more logical to state that self-defense FOLLOWS from the idea that humans don't have the right to take life. In effect, it is because no human has the right to end a life that it's acceptable to use drastic measures to enforce that principle by defending life with whatever means are required. It's a clear progression until one begins muddying the water by pretending that killing is the POINT of self-defense. It is NOT. Death is only a possible (and undesirable) side effect of self-defense that can not be avoided in some cases. Quote:
I'm well aware of the Quakers and similar groups, their general beliefs and why they hold them. I believe they have the right to believe and act as they do, but I do not agree that their existence and belief structure constitute any sort of evidence that what they believe is true. One could, no doubt, find groups of people with belief systems to support virtually anything. Quote:
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This thread seems an extension of the idea that criminals can do whatever they want but if a law-abiding citizen is somehow involved in those criminal actions (even if said citizen stays strictly within the law and is involved through no fault or wish of his own) then he suddenly bears a moral responsibility for the entire outcome. My analysis of the original thread was that if you don't want to carry because of the hypothetical repercussions then you shouldn't carry. In the same vein, if you feel that you can't tolerate the possible repercussions of self-defense using deadly force then you shouldn't prepare to defend yourself with deadly force.
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April 8, 2007, 01:41 AM | #113 |
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Excellent thread - so many points
It seems to me that a lot of what posters like Mike P. and JohnKSa are talking about revolves around morals and responsibility. Just about every bit of that had better be taken into consideration well before a situation presents itself where these kinds of questions are asked. If you purchase a weapon, gun, knife, club, ninja throwing stars, etc. for any form of self defense it may very well end up being useless to you if you have not worked out these kinds of issues in advance. My wife and I are in the process of getting our CHL permits and I have thought and continue to think hard about the morals, responsibility, and consequences of possibly having to use my firearm. I remind her every so often to think long and hard about it too. Being Joe Average citizen, I count myself very fortunate to know that the odds of ever having to use my gun for self defense is remote (fortunately, I can justify the expense by shooting the tar out of IDPA targets fairly regularly ).
The gist of my thought process runs like this: 1. I don't every want to kill anyone. I don't ever want to get into a physical altercation with anyone. I don't ever want to be in a situation where I may be forced to defend myself or another innocent person. 2. I know that by owning a weapon capable of lethal force I might kill someone if I use it against them. 3. If, God forbid, I am ever in a situation where I am forced to choose to defend myself (not much of a choice for me, I believe it'll be pretty natural), I have decided in advance that I will. Lots of people on TFL talk about SHTF scenarios. In all of these definitions SHTF is usually some kind of catastrophe, natural or man made that causes a break down in society so we all have to hold up in our bunkers with our M16's until it gets better or some such. I have a different version of SHTF. If I am attacked, the S has HTF for me. By having my moral issues worked out in advance, the only thing I have to think about is the tactics to survive the situation. If I am attacked, I have decided in advance that I WILL shoot to stop (and yes, probably kill) the person doing the attacking. I hope it never happens. I hear taking a life changes a person. BUT, I am willing to do so if all other options have failed and I essentially have to CHOOSE to either allow myself to be attacked or to defend myself. The pacifist has done the same thing. If they have done so with great soul searching and conviction, then they are right in there own eyes. I suppose that just as I would be willing to shoot someone attacking a pacifist who won't fight back, they must be willing to not come to my aid should the situation be reversed. I think both parties would have something terrible to live with at the end of a bad situation like that. To the pacifist's credit, if everyone believed as they did, there would probably be no violence, no war, etc. To their detriment, that'll never happen given human nature being what it is. Now, in an effort to address the OP's point a bit I have a suggestion. If anyone thinks any of the stuff in this thread is paranoia, I urge you to go to a psychiatric hospital somewhere and really really get to know some people who are paranoid (yes, you can find them elsewhere but you should get a really good sense of it by finding some that are certifiably over the top). Paranoid people are not normal. They live in fear. Constantly. Their lives absolutely suck. I know, I live with one who's just about certifiable (close relative). It's terrible to watch. As an earlier poster pointed out the differences between POSSIBILITY and PROBABILITY, it's absolutely true. For the paranoid, "That BG is out there waiting for me and is lurking behind every bush so I MUST carry 24/7 to make sure I can defend myself against him." I'd have to say that just about anything else is merely prudent and allows you to have a certain level of preparedness. I am 42 years old. My sister-n-law got shot in the head at her workspace a few years ago by a co-worker. Even after this 'close to home' event happened, I didn't own a hand gun or have a plan for self defense. Interestingly enough, I had, over the last 10 years or so, begun to decide that the world really was a dangerous place and I ought to be more prepared for a worst case scenario to happen to me. It just took a long time to sink in.
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April 8, 2007, 10:10 AM | #114 |
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Just reading through on my way around. Interesting thread. Common discussion.
The problem I see with the ex-Jew, now-Quaker pacifist is this: will he allow HIS children to go into the camps? Or is he expecting someone else to protect them on his behalf (and how is that pacifism)? Pretending (or believing!) that 'because he is pacifist, therefore nothing bad will happen' is a child’s magical view. If it is, indeed, his preference that HE be killed rather than someone else (some BG) in order to prevent him from being “violent” – then he is too (mentally/emotionally) damaged to be trusted with the lives of his own family, or anyone in his vicinity. My life-saying is: Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don’t and that seems to cover it for me. He and the Quakers can ONLY be "neutral" if their neighbors allow them to. If the neighbors decide that the Quaker's property and women are going to be theirs – then the Quakers can either buckle up and defend themselves, or die. {shrug} There is no option – either you defend yourself and your family, someone else defends them, or you lose them. Pacifism is only possible if the people with power ALLOW you to be pacifist! Avalanche Oh, and the whole discussion of “is the criminal 'forcing' me to act"? No, he is merely the CUE for my own choices for how I will act. If it rains and I put on a raincoat, is the rain forcing me to act? |
April 8, 2007, 11:22 AM | #115 | ||
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There are folks who believe that no human has the right to take a life. They would not say that someone else's ending of a life is "OK", but that you may resist in a number of ways. But (for them), you are not allowed to end a life to save a life. For example, for the Quakers, you are obligated to "speak to that of G-d" in any evildoer, but you cannot use violence to change anyone's behavior. Quote:
I only brought up the peace churches because I believe that they have a consistent, coherent, more or less logical understanding of pacifism based on their reading of the Gospels.I happen think that their consistent, coherent, logical, Gospel based pacifism is wrong - that's part of why I am no longer a Quaker. Mike
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April 8, 2007, 11:54 AM | #116 | ||||
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I don't want to speak for the man, but if you think he has not thought hard a long about questions of protecting family, I respectfully suggest that you're wrong. I have know a couple of survivors, and they have though very long and very hard about all of those questions. Can you really be arguing that he never thought about his own children suffering a fate like his own brothers and sisters and his parents? Quote:
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Mike
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April 8, 2007, 12:09 PM | #117 | |||
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April 8, 2007, 01:01 PM | #118 |
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Mike, I concur on your logic statements. I think the discussion drifted from being able to see how one could come to those conclusions using logic, to the merits of the conclusion.
But you gotta admit, this is a pretty darned good thread!
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April 8, 2007, 01:47 PM | #119 | |
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It's a heck of a lot more interesting to me than another 9 mm vs 45 ACP war! Mike
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April 8, 2007, 02:54 PM | #120 | ||||||||
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Perhaps, Mike,
I came on too strong... I was 'speaking' earnestly, but ... well... yes, disparagingly.
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The Mary Poppins view (as I see it) is this: "before I knew better, my family suffered and died. Now that I know better -- I'll choose not to defend myself or them." I do not find it healthy to decide, on the basis of something bad happening because I did not prepare, or because my/our behavior elicited something bad (as that woman who left her window closed but unlocked), that after the bad thing, the correct choice is to do even LESS to protect myself and my family. (Unless you think that choosing consciously not to prepare for such occurrences is making a sound choice -- in which case, would the logical choice then be to turn in your guns?) Quote:
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Sidenote: If he "would argue strongly that asking someone else to use violence to "protect" him would be as wrong," does he therefore argue the U.S. should have stayed out of that war? Somehow, I think not. Quote:
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April 8, 2007, 03:15 PM | #121 |
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Paranoid depends on your perspective. I think your reasoning is sound but some anti-gun person will think the opposite.
Do you wear a seat belt? Same logic, to protect your life from circumstances often beyond your control. I'll bet the same people think an alarm system alone will protect them from true evil doers. I've found that I don't share the details of my gun ownership and training with anyone who isn't of the same mind. I like people of different views but some things are better left private. The exception is a nicely grouped bullet ridden target next to our door:; our gargoyle. For those here that have met evil personally, professionally or privately, know the value of be prepared; there isn't room to finish second. |
April 8, 2007, 05:39 PM | #122 | |
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Avalanche,
Stop with all that sexy gun talk, I'm trying to read this forum in a calm, rational manner! LOL! You said: Quote:
How can anyone say someone is wrong for how the believe about something that is basically an opinion? We can disagree with their belief, perhaps vehemently, but I don't think we can say with total assurance that they are wrong. I had a friend who was in the military with me. He claimed he would never fight back if someone attacked him. He worked on weapons that would kill large numbers of people if ever used. I found that difficult to fathom. I also thought he must not respect himself very much if he was not willing to defend himself. He was a friend but it was hard to respect this point of view that he had. However, if someone has a solid conviction, and they have thought it out as best they can for themselves, I don't think in most cases they can be considered "wrong". Now don't go getting all goofy on me saying things like, "so if they believed in pedophilia, that'd be OK too?" I don't mean things which fall outside of acceptable norms that a society would allow. If a pacifist believes strongly, that to take a life, or even resist force is the way to go, I could at least respect their convictions. I would hope, that if they thought it through thoroughly, they also would pair up with someone of the same beliefs. Be a bummer to find out your significant other won't resist your attacker when the poo hits. Now, if you know in advance? You can lay down and die peacefully knowing you have lived your convictions. I would be afraid for kids of people like that since they don't have much choice in the matter. But, I know, I know, I am probably just picking the fly crap out of the pepper here. I've just always had a hard time with absolutes outside of my own flawed mind! Now where's that cold shower...
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April 8, 2007, 06:08 PM | #123 | |||||
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The short answer to all of your other questions is that my friend (and most Quakers) would feel obligated to speak to that of G-d in their enemy, and to die in witness to those principles. That was part of why I gave the hint to read a little Quaker history - dying is what Quakers did (when necessary). The lady who's statue is in Boston was Mary Dyer. She was banished from Boston on pain of death for her beliefs. She returned to die as a witness for her beliefs: Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Dyer Many Quakers were prepared to die rather than use violence to survive. Luckily not many Quakers in the US had to pay that price. But many did pay that price in England. Quote:
Fundamentally, he (and other Quakers) believe that al human beings, including Hitler have that of G-d in them (from Genesis 1:26). He felt that it was our obligation to non-violently resist evil, and to speak to that of G-d in evildoers. And die if necessary as a witness to good. Quote:
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I can respect a position with which I do not agree. I am a Navy brat - I grew up in the standard San Diego/Guam/Bethesda environs. I respect people who made a choice the exact opposite to that of my professor. Some of the people that I knew growing up were what I would call "honorable warriors". I can respect both pacifists and warriors - I know that makes me a bit of an eccentric. Mike
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April 8, 2007, 09:01 PM | #124 |
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So to summarize...
.22LR for the Pacifist.....38 special for the Quaker...and me, I'll take a .357 magnum. Oops...sorry...thought this was a forum about guns. I do find the point about responsibility to one's family quite interesting. I mean it's fine if you want to die because you CHOOSE to not protect yourself....but what about your infant child who gets killed because of your (IMO naive, foolish, irrational, irresponsible, negligent, unrealistic) choices about your own beliefs. Those who bring children into this world have a responsibility to teach them, nurture them, educate them, etc until they can be adequately self sufficient so they can form their own set of beliefs....but until that time you also MUST PROTECT them irrespective of what you believe. To do less than that is being false and hypocritical to your own Quaker, pacifist or whatever beliefs in the sanctity of life. Fine to make your own choices and die spread over the wallpaper in your own home....but no adult has the right to impose those beliefs on infant children....if you do then you are responsible for the loss of their life...and thus the falsehood and hypocrisy of the beliefs. It would not be easy for me to take another life. And I'm sure it would affect me very deeply for the rest of my life. But I have done the thinking and pray if the time comes for the courage to do what it takes. There's another word for those who don't. |
April 8, 2007, 09:34 PM | #125 | |
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I would think that a person who believed that it was wrong to kill someone under any circumstances and then killed someone hypocritical. (In point of fact, I think that I would guess that they found they weren't as pacifist as they thought. - I am pretty non-judmental, and I expect folks change their minds over time. Absolute pacifism seems a pretty high moral standard to me.) So how is the Quaker rejection of violence hypocritical? Mike
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