My friend who's graduating will have to wait for her grad gift,,,

aarondhgraham · June 30, 2020, 12:26 PM

My friend who's graduating will have to wait for her grad gift,,,
Because there's nothing out there for me to purchase.

I've just spent 1.5 hours on-line
And didn't find any of the desired pistols.

Well, I did find one place that had the Kel Tec P17,,,
But I'm not paying $279.95 + tax + shipping + transfer for a $199.00 MSRP gun.

I'm thinking I'll be gifting her my very well used Bersa Thunder .22,,,
Then replacing it with a new one when things return to normal.

Yeah, this post is somewhat of a whine,,,
I've been known to whine when I don't get my way.

Aarond

.

ammo.crafter · June 30, 2020, 12:32 PM

Cheese goes well with "whine". Bad joke, sorry.

You came up with a great solution to a difficult problem. Good for you!

stinkeypete · June 30, 2020, 05:08 PM

You understand there is a federal problem with purchasing a handgun with the intent to give it to a “friend”, right?

Aside from that felony, a handgun is a very personal item and if the recipient wants one, the recipient should pick the one that works for them, regardless of cost.

Dufus · June 30, 2020, 05:23 PM

Amen to that, stinkypete. I was gonna get my spouse a EDC pistol, then the wise man spoke up and she picked her own even though it came from "our" bank account.

That learned me to let son and daughter to pick their own too. Shortly after, daughter and son got their carry license using their own hand picked weapons.

I'm proud of all three of them. By the way, none of the three picked the same pistols.....all different tastes and desires.

Mike38 · June 30, 2020, 05:48 PM

Quote:

You understand there is a federal problem with purchasing a handgun with the intent to give it to a “friend”, right?

Isn't gifting a firearm allowed as long as the receiver of the gift is not a restricted person?

krunchnik · June 30, 2020, 07:16 PM

According to Bing it is completely legal to gift a firearm as long as the receiving person is legal to own one

Cheapshooter · June 30, 2020, 07:30 PM

From the horse's mouth.
https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-an...gun-unlicensed
But check your state laws because they may be stricter.

stinkeypete · July 1, 2020, 12:10 AM

I seem to recall a check box on my application that said something like “I am purchasing this firearm intending for my own use” and if you don’t check “yes”, the transfer will likely fail.

Making a false statement on that form is a felony.

You can google “straw purchase” and “don’t lie for the other guy”. Practically speaking, you could buy a handgun and then “decide you don’t like it” before you shoot it, then gift it to a non-restricted Person... but you can’t post on the Internet that’s what you are doing- because it’s illegal.
State laws vary, too.

Gifting your old Bersa is a straight up gift and only local laws apply.

aarondhgraham · July 1, 2020, 09:46 AM

You understand there is a federal problem with purchasing a handgun with the intent to give it to a “friend”, right?

Not right.

I seem to recall a check box on my application that said something like “I am purchasing this firearm intending for my own use” and if you don’t check “yes”, the transfer will likely fail.

"For my own use" includes buying it to be used as a gift to a non-prohibited person.

Thanks for your concerns gentlemen,,,
But this is not an illegal act.

As far as letting her choose her own gun,,,
The Bersa Thunder .22 is the gun I used to teach her with.

She likes it very well and is proficient with it,,,
I don't think this will be an issue.

Aarond

.

Swifty Morgan · July 1, 2020, 10:02 AM

I bought my dad a Glock, legally. Told the shop people exactly what I was doing, and there were no problems.

aarondhgraham · July 1, 2020, 11:06 AM

I bought my dad a Glock, legally. Told the shop people exactly what I was doing, and there were no problems.

I've read posts by members in this and other forums,,,
Where they told the gun shop it was for a gift,,,
And then the gun shop denied the sale.

They are incorrect in their interpretation of the law,,,
But I understand their action comes from an overabundance of caution.

Aarond

.

1911_Hardball · July 1, 2020, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stinkeypete

You understand there is a federal problem with purchasing a handgun with the intent to give it to a “friend”, right?

Aside from that felony, a handgun is a very personal item and if the recipient wants one, the recipient should pick the one that works for them, regardless of cost.

The instructions (Page 4 of the Form 4473) for Question 11a specifically state that you may purchase a firearm and give it as a gift.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/44...53009/download

aarondhgraham · July 1, 2020, 02:04 PM

That should clear up any misconceptions about buying as a "bona fide" gift.

Aarond

.

Kreyzhorse · July 1, 2020, 06:07 PM

Aarond, you sir seem to have gifted many a gun to grads and it's very cool indeed.

Any idea how many you've gifted?

stinkeypete · July 1, 2020, 08:23 PM

I stand corrected. The upper right hand corner of the link per post #12 is explicit and clear.

Thank you, 1911 hardball. I learned something today!

JDBerg · July 2, 2020, 07:11 AM

Although a graduation gift is always a nice and appreciated gesture, IMHO, giving a gift certificate from an LGS or LGR might be an easier approach to take.

aarondhgraham · July 2, 2020, 09:33 AM

Aarond, you sir seem to have gifted many a gun to grads and it's very cool indeed.
Any idea how many you've gifted?

One Heritage SAA revolver with a hand made belt and holster.

Two Bersa Thunder 22's with extra mags and hand made holster.

One Ruger Mk-III 4" slab-side with hand made holster.

One Mossberg 22 Plinkster (used) with accessories and case.

One Savage 3B single-shot 22 rifle that was re-blued/re-finished by me,,,
I offered him a choice of several rifles,,,
He chose that one.

It's not like I'm rich or anything approaching rich,,,
But I'm single with a professional salary,,,
And debt free but for a student loan.

I have a decent "allowance" for things like this.

These are all kids who I met at the university I work at,,,
I introduced them to shooting and they stuck with it.

I take a lot of kids from my work shooting at my rifle/pistol club,,,
But I don't buy them all gifts when they graduate,,,
These six kids were very special to me.

A young lady (Chrissa - daughter of a former boss and dear friend) just graduated high school,,,
I've known this fine young lady since she was three days old,,,
Click here to see a picture of us together.

As soon as I finish making the lining for a nice wooden case,,,
She is going to get two of my heirloom guns.

4" Nickel plated S&W Model 34,,,

3" Nickel plated S&W Model 36,,,

That nickel plated model 34 has a nice history,,,
A dear friend of mine (Jackie) got it for her 12th birthday.

Her father took her to a gun store on her birthday,,,
And told her she could pick any .22 handgun she wanted.

When she told me the story I complemented her on her good taste in handguns,,,
I asked her why she chose that particular one,,,
Her reply was, "It was shiny."

Her brother gave me the 34 when she passed away a few years back,,,
Since Chrissa also knew Jackie I decided to pass it along to her.

The Model 36 was just a gun I bought specifically to pair with the 34,,,
No special provenance to it except it's a near perfect match.

Aarond

.

Kreyzhorse · July 5, 2020, 07:42 AM

Well done Aarond. Happy 4th weekend to you Sir.

langenc · July 28, 2020, 05:56 PM

My son graduated w/ PhD and I rold him Id buy him a rifle. We decided hed buy and I pay, him.

We both have CPLs and can buy w/out NICS, unless that changed recently n MI. It was ok 15 yrs ago. Either could buy but we didnt chance it. That 'straw stuff' dont discuss who pays. Only inhibits law abiding and not felons, much same as all gun "control" laws.

aarondhgraham · August 5, 2020, 11:51 AM

"We decided he'd buy and I pay, him."

When the dang Kel Tec P17 finally becomes available through Buds gun shop,,,
I'll do the same thing for Jaitlyn's gun.

Buds markets a lifetime warranty for any gun they sell,,,
I believe the price varies by the cost of the gun,,,
But for a Heritage it was a mere $10-bill.

It may seem like it's not worth the money,,,
But the warranty covers the shipping to the repair center.

That $10-bill beats the heck out of $70 for UPS next day air.

The only problem is that it's only good for the original purchaser,,,
So I'll "present" her with the one I'll have bought for myself,,,
Then have her order a new one with Buds warranty.

I'll immediately write her a check for the exact amount.

Aarond

.

Reloadron · August 6, 2020, 08:44 AM

This too shall pass. Most of us have seen it before and many of us will see it again. Patience and good things come to those who wait.

A few years back I found a nice little S&W Model 15 I thought would be ideal for my son-in-law. I bought the gun with every intention of gifting it to my son-in-law. No laws were broken, state or federal. What is illegal is knowingly doing a straw purchase. That comes up under 21 a.

Anyway, just wait it out.

Ron

candr44 · August 20, 2020, 10:35 PM

I was in a gun store and over heard a conversation where someone wanted to buy a gun for a gift. The store handled it by allowing the giftor to pay for it while the giftee went through the back ground check.

Seems like it would be better legally for all involved if both went through the back ground check.

**Spats McGee** · August 21, 2020, 04:11 AM

Giving guns as gifts has always been perfectly legal, as long as they're bona fide gifts.

If I see a gun that I think a buddy would like, I can buy it with my $$$ and give it to him. What's not legal is if my buddy gives me $$$ and I buy the pistol for him. The Abramski case was just such an event. Abramski bought a gun for his FIL (I think it was his FIL), using his Blue Label discount and his FIL's money.

**Aguila Blanca** · August 21, 2020, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by candr44

I was in a gun store and over heard a conversation where someone wanted to buy a gun for a gift. The store handled it by allowing the giftor to pay for it while the giftee went through the back ground check.

Seems like it would be better legally for all involved if both went through the back ground check.

I am neither a lawyer nor an FFL, but I agree. It has always been my understanding that the proper procedure for giving a firearm is that the giver buys the firearm and puts it in his/her name, then the firearm is transferred to the final recipient as a transfer from the donor to the recipient.

Another avenue that I believe to be lawful is for the donor to give the recipient a sum of money sufficient to buy the firearm -- as a gift of money, before either of them enters the gun shop. That way, when the recipient is purchasing a firearm, he or she is spending his or her own money and can honestly state on the 4473 that they are the actual purchaser of the firearm.

June 30, 2020, 12:32 PM	#2
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	whine Cheese goes well with "whine". Bad joke, sorry. You came up with a great solution to a difficult problem. Good for you! __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

June 30, 2020, 07:16 PM	#6
krunchnik Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2010 Location: Lakeland,TN Posts: 220	According to Bing it is completely legal to gift a firearm as long as the receiving person is legal to own one __________________ THE CROW

June 30, 2020, 07:30 PM	#7
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	From the horse's mouth. https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-an...gun-unlicensed But check your state laws because they may be stricter. __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

July 1, 2020, 09:46 AM	#9
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Gifting a gun is not illegal in and of itself. You understand there is a federal problem with purchasing a handgun with the intent to give it to a “friend”, right? Not right. I seem to recall a check box on my application that said something like “I am purchasing this firearm intending for my own use” and if you don’t check “yes”, the transfer will likely fail. "For my own use" includes buying it to be used as a gift to a non-prohibited person. Thanks for your concerns gentlemen,,, But this is not an illegal act. As far as letting her choose her own gun,,, The Bersa Thunder .22 is the gun I used to teach her with. She likes it very well and is proficient with it,,, I don't think this will be an issue. Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

July 1, 2020, 10:02 AM	#10
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 467	I bought my dad a Glock, legally. Told the shop people exactly what I was doing, and there were no problems. __________________ People who think their guns shoot better than they do must not be shooting much rimfire.

June 30, 2020, 12:26 PM	#1
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	My friend who's graduating will have to wait for her grad gift,,, My friend who's graduating will have to wait for her grad gift,,, Because there's nothing out there for me to purchase. I've just spent 1.5 hours on-line And didn't find any of the desired pistols. Well, I did find one place that had the Kel Tec P17,,, But I'm not paying $279.95 + tax + shipping + transfer for a $199.00 MSRP gun. I'm thinking I'll be gifting her my very well used Bersa Thunder .22,,, Then replacing it with a new one when things return to normal. Yeah, this post is somewhat of a whine,,, I've been known to whine when I don't get my way. Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

June 30, 2020, 05:08 PM	#3
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	You understand there is a federal problem with purchasing a handgun with the intent to give it to a “friend”, right? Aside from that felony, a handgun is a very personal item and if the recipient wants one, the recipient should pick the one that works for them, regardless of cost.

June 30, 2020, 05:23 PM	#4
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	Amen to that, stinkypete. I was gonna get my spouse a EDC pistol, then the wise man spoke up and she picked her own even though it came from "our" bank account. That learned me to let son and daughter to pick their own too. Shortly after, daughter and son got their carry license using their own hand picked weapons. I'm proud of all three of them. By the way, none of the three picked the same pistols.....all different tastes and desires.

July 1, 2020, 12:10 AM	#8
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	I seem to recall a check box on my application that said something like “I am purchasing this firearm intending for my own use” and if you don’t check “yes”, the transfer will likely fail. Making a false statement on that form is a felony. You can google “straw purchase” and “don’t lie for the other guy”. Practically speaking, you could buy a handgun and then “decide you don’t like it” before you shoot it, then gift it to a non-restricted Person... but you can’t post on the Internet that’s what you are doing- because it’s illegal. State laws vary, too. Gifting your old Bersa is a straight up gift and only local laws apply.

July 1, 2020, 11:06 AM	#11
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	I bought my dad a Glock, legally. Told the shop people exactly what I was doing, and there were no problems. I've read posts by members in this and other forums,,, Where they told the gun shop it was for a gift,,, And then the gun shop denied the sale. They are incorrect in their interpretation of the law,,, But I understand their action comes from an overabundance of caution. Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

July 1, 2020, 02:04 PM	#13
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Thanks 1911_Hardball That should clear up any misconceptions about buying as a "bona fide" gift. Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

July 1, 2020, 06:07 PM	#14
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	Aarond, you sir seem to have gifted many a gun to grads and it's very cool indeed. Any idea how many you've gifted? __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

July 1, 2020, 08:23 PM	#15
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	I stand corrected. The upper right hand corner of the link per post #12 is explicit and clear. Thank you, 1911 hardball. I learned something today! __________________ My book "The Pheasant Hunter's Action Adventure Cookbook" is now on Amazon. Tall tales, hunting tips, butchering from bird to the freezer, and recipes.

July 2, 2020, 07:11 AM	#16
JDBerg Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2015 Location: PA Posts: 1,835	Although a graduation gift is always a nice and appreciated gesture, IMHO, giving a gift certificate from an LGS or LGR might be an easier approach to take. __________________ Words to Live By: Before You Pray - Believe; Before You Speak - Listen; Before You Spend - Earn; Before You Write - Think; Before You Quit - Try; Before You Die - Live

July 2, 2020, 09:33 AM	#17
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Aarond, you sir seem to have gifted many a gun to grads and it's very cool indeed. Any idea how many you've gifted? One Heritage SAA revolver with a hand made belt and holster. Two Bersa Thunder 22's with extra mags and hand made holster. One Ruger Mk-III 4" slab-side with hand made holster. One Mossberg 22 Plinkster (used) with accessories and case. One Savage 3B single-shot 22 rifle that was re-blued/re-finished by me,,, I offered him a choice of several rifles,,, He chose that one. It's not like I'm rich or anything approaching rich,,, But I'm single with a professional salary,,, And debt free but for a student loan. I have a decent "allowance" for things like this. These are all kids who I met at the university I work at,,, I introduced them to shooting and they stuck with it. I take a lot of kids from my work shooting at my rifle/pistol club,,, But I don't buy them all gifts when they graduate,,, These six kids were very special to me. A young lady (Chrissa - daughter of a former boss and dear friend) just graduated high school,,, I've known this fine young lady since she was three days old,,, Click here to see a picture of us together. As soon as I finish making the lining for a nice wooden case,,, She is going to get two of my heirloom guns. 4" Nickel plated S&W Model 34,,, 3" Nickel plated S&W Model 36,,, That nickel plated model 34 has a nice history,,, A dear friend of mine (Jackie) got it for her 12th birthday. Her father took her to a gun store on her birthday,,, And told her she could pick any .22 handgun she wanted. When she told me the story I complemented her on her good taste in handguns,,, I asked her why she chose that particular one,,, Her reply was, "It was shiny." Her brother gave me the 34 when she passed away a few years back,,, Since Chrissa also knew Jackie I decided to pass it along to her. The Model 36 was just a gun I bought specifically to pair with the 34,,, No special provenance to it except it's a near perfect match. Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time) Last edited by aarondhgraham; July 2, 2020 at 10:03 AM.

July 5, 2020, 07:42 AM	#18
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	Well done Aarond. Happy 4th weekend to you Sir. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

July 28, 2020, 05:56 PM	#19
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	My son graduated w/ PhD and I rold him Id buy him a rifle. We decided hed buy and I pay, him. We both have CPLs and can buy w/out NICS, unless that changed recently n MI. It was ok 15 yrs ago. Either could buy but we didnt chance it. That 'straw stuff' dont discuss who pays. Only inhibits law abiding and not felons, much same as all gun "control" laws.

August 5, 2020, 11:51 AM	#20
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	"We decided he'd buy and I pay, him." When the dang Kel Tec P17 finally becomes available through Buds gun shop,,, I'll do the same thing for Jaitlyn's gun. Buds markets a lifetime warranty for any gun they sell,,, I believe the price varies by the cost of the gun,,, But for a Heritage it was a mere $10-bill. It may seem like it's not worth the money,,, But the warranty covers the shipping to the repair center. That $10-bill beats the heck out of $70 for UPS next day air. The only problem is that it's only good for the original purchaser,,, So I'll "present" her with the one I'll have bought for myself,,, Then have her order a new one with Buds warranty. I'll immediately write her a check for the exact amount. Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

August 6, 2020, 08:44 AM	#21
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,750	This too shall pass. Most of us have seen it before and many of us will see it again. Patience and good things come to those who wait. A few years back I found a nice little S&W Model 15 I thought would be ideal for my son-in-law. I bought the gun with every intention of gifting it to my son-in-law. No laws were broken, state or federal. What is illegal is knowingly doing a straw purchase. That comes up under 21 a. Anyway, just wait it out. Ron

August 20, 2020, 10:35 PM	#22
candr44 Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2006 Posts: 481	I was in a gun store and over heard a conversation where someone wanted to buy a gun for a gift. The store handled it by allowing the giftor to pay for it while the giftee went through the back ground check. Seems like it would be better legally for all involved if both went through the back ground check. Last edited by candr44; August 20, 2020 at 10:42 PM.

August 21, 2020, 04:11 AM	#23
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 8,821	Giving guns as gifts has always been perfectly legal, as long as they're bona fide gifts. If I see a gun that I think a buddy would like, I can buy it with my $$$ and give it to him. What's not legal is if my buddy gives me $$$ and I buy the pistol for him. The Abramski case was just such an event. Abramski bought a gun for his FIL (I think it was his FIL), using his Blue Label discount and his FIL's money. __________________ I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some.