Universal Background Checks sans registration

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by USNRet93

I'll wade into this..how exactly do you confiscate about 400 MILLION guns?

one at a time.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Originally Posted by USNRet93

I'll wade into this..how exactly do you confiscate about 400 MILLION guns?

Well, first you need to figure out who owns what (i.e. Australia-style). When you do it backwards (confiscate before registration, i.e. New Zealand-style), it doesn’t work so well, even in a country with a tiny population of gun owners, licensing, and extensive regulation.

[HiBC]

How about once they pass the law

OK,you hold out. You keep your guns. You get caught with them,you are a felon. That has you looking over your shoulder. You are living in hiding.

How much of owning your guns is being able to take them out and shoot them?

How is that going to work out for you? If the penalty is a felony,where can you go shooting where you know for sure you will be undetected?

We won't even talk about ammo after gun confiscation.

OK,there are a few individuals here who have a comfort level with with increased gun laws. You can think and feel however you want.I support your freedom to do that.
I don't want to impose upon you or control you.
In the state of Colorado,where I live, the Narcissists who consider themselves the enlightened elite don't seem to share that concept. They are all about imposing and controlling.And taking.


But you are one person,one vote,and not one bit more significant than I am.

Despite the fact that some people talk about "Our Democracy" ,we are a Constittional Republic,not a Democracy. We are not ruled by a man (or Woman) We are not ruled by a mob of men or women.Not tyranny of the majority Or poll results.

We are governed by Constitutional Principles which protect the Individual Liberty of the minority of just one citizen. That includes my right to keep and bear arms.

Those Rights are not yours or mine to fool with. They are a legacy for our children and grandchildren.

I know where those Rights came from. Its a Higher Authority than government.

[kmw1954]

UBC without Registration?

I have brought up this thought a few times and have either been ignored or fully torched, But I believe like AMP44 in post #9 that it is fully possible but will never happen because registration is what the Gun Control groups ultimately want and then total gun elimination. I also agree with Spats last paragraph and last sentence in post #25.

Now I also have a little different approach than a UBC which would be a Universal or National FIOD Where one would apply and proceed through a comprehensive background check just one time. One wouldn't even need to be a firearm owner to posses a UFOID card, but by having one it would show that the holder is not a restricted person. Then one would just need show this card whenever a purchase is made and at the same time the seller could also provide one so I as the buyer can have somewhat of an assurance that I am not buying a gun that was just used in a robbery or murder.

We are advancing enough in security ID procedures that a quick search by the police could return if a person possessed a FOID and if arrested they would be forfeited their card and investigated then as to if they actually own any firearms.

This UFOID could also be set up to allow different levels such as plain ownership, Concealed Carry, or fully automatic firearms. Then this card would also be valid in any of the 50 CONUS...

I thought the whole idea of a UBC is to check the person as to their ability to legally posses a firearm and not a means to registration.

An example for me would be an argument I had with my auto insurance company. I had an old truck that I carried liability insurance on and I got rid of it and replaced it with a newer SUV, again with just liability coverage and my rate went up $300.00 per year and I asked why. They told me it was because of the model of the SUV. So I again asked WHY. You are covering me and my driving record not the car model. I still have the same driving record. Also with this coverage you are not going to repair or replace this car if it get wrecked. They couldn't give me an answer to that. I am now looking for a new insurance company.

[Spats McGee]

Originally Posted by bn12gg

Imo, every hand gun that passes from one individual ownership to another, including a family member, should go thru a background check. Just simple common sense.

.02. David.

Ps. I am NRA

I'll echo others' sentiments.

• Why?
• Claiming it's 'simple common sense' doesn't make it so.

[Spats McGee]

Originally Posted by kmw1954

....Now I also have a little different approach than a UBC which would be a Universal or National FIOD Where one would apply and proceed through a comprehensive background check just one time. One wouldn't even need to be a firearm owner to posses a UFOID card, but by having one it would show that the holder is not a restricted person....

Realistically, the odds of non-firearm owners getting UFOIDs approaches zero. This mechanism, then, becomes a registry of gun owners. No, thank you.

Originally Posted by kmw1954

....Then one would just need show this card whenever a purchase is made and at the same time the seller could also provide one so I as the buyer can have somewhat of an assurance that I am not buying a gun that was just used in a robbery or murder....

You've already said that under your proposed sysem, the gun wouldn't be checked. So the buyer really doesn't get much of an assurance. Really, what the buyer can count on is the following: (1) at the time of the issuance of the UFOID; (2) the seller had not been done something or been through some process subsequent to issuance that resulted in revoking and confiscating the UFOID.

Originally Posted by kmw1954

....This UFOID could also be set up to allow different levels such as plain ownership, Concealed Carry, or fully automatic firearms. Then this card would also be valid in any of the 50 CONUS...

I thought the whole idea of a UBC is to check the person as to their ability to legally posses a firearm and not a means to registration....

As I mentioned above, what you're proposing is a means to register gun owners rather than guns. That really doesn't give me any warm fuzzies, either.

[USNRet93]

In the state of Colorado,where I live, the Narcissists who consider themselves the enlightened elite don't seem to share that concept. They are all about imposing and controlling. And taking.
Not the governor, it seems.

Rep. Jared Polis says he thinks banning weapons possessed by law-abiding people violates the Second Amendment: "I believe it would make it harder for Colorado families to defend themselves and also interfere with the recreational use of guns by law- abiding Coloradans," Polis said. "If we want to reduce violence, we should invest in improving our schools to ensure that young people have jobs and do not turn to gangs, crime or violence of any form, and improving access to mental health services."

The governor has mentioned nothing that the POTUS hasn't mentioned..UBC, RFL, 21yo to purchase, AW ban(with grand father clause)...

[kmw1954]

Spats I also mentioned that a UBC is supposed to be about the person making the transaction and not the item being bought or sold so how is that different than what I suggested? The individual is processing through a Check only their way they have to do it every time they make a purchase and then pay a fee also. Sounds to me like a revenue generator.

Also as has been brought up, times and societies change, populations and voters attitudes change. At some point something is going to happen, may not be tomorrow or not this decade but it will happen at the present speed and course we are on now. So ask yourself which way would you want it to be? No this does not give me the "Warm Fuzzies" either and I just hope that I will be passed on when we as a society finally arrive at this point.

As far as FOID holders not owning guns, Why Not? Long ago I lived in Illinois and had a FOID, got divorced and sold all my guns though I still had my card. My older brother also now has an FOID and no longer possesses any firearms because of physical limitations. small sample size but a valid sample all the same.

[44 AMP]

Originally Posted by kmw1954
....Now I also have a little different approach than a UBC which would be a Universal or National FIOD Where one would apply and proceed through a comprehensive background check just one time. One wouldn't even need to be a firearm owner to posses a UFOID card, but by having one it would show that the holder is not a restricted person....

NO!! No, no, no! NO APPLY!!! IF you are going to do it, and do it nationwide, (trampling over STATE's RIGHTS in the process), then you do it to every freakin body in the country.

This is not a matter where "mother, may I?" is the proper response. Look, if you want to go cap in hand, bow your head, tug your forelock, kneel before the laird, and ask for permission to exercise your Constitutional rights (ANY OF THEM), you go ahead, but don't be telling the rest of us this is what we should do. Oh, and by the way, your lordship, would you be giving me a card proving I asked permission, and you granted it???

NO!

Show your card so you can buy? Or TRANSFER?? Again, this is PROOVE YOU ARE INNOCENT, so you can exercise a fundamental natural right?
And, it goes even further than that. As mentioned, while there will be a relative handful of people who APPLY for the card and don't have guns, those will be people who think they might someday want a gun, or as you mentioned, people who had guns and later sold them off and didn't replace them. The rest of the country, those people who don't have guns, and aren't planning on having guns simply WILL NOT APPLY. And therefore, yes, it creates a de facto registration of gun owners.

And, you know, once you're on the list, you're on the list....
The nightmare scenario is a gang of masked men, wearing black uniforms, coal scuttle helmets, combat boots (because jackboots are out of fashion) carrying German made submachine guns, kick in your door at 3AM, drag you and your family out of bed, prone you out on the cold ground, handcuffed while the ransack your home looking for your guns. Not finding any (you say you got rid of them years ago, they think you're lying and just more clever than most at hiding them), they literally tear your house apart brick by brick. After several hours, where you're not arrested, you don't get to call your lawyer, or do anything but watch helpless (maybe they stomp your kitten to death...) They finally let you go and leave, because they couldn't find any guns. No apology, nothing. They'll leave you with your house torn up, front door broken off the hinges...AND, that's if you are LUCKY enough not to be killed and your house burned down!

Don't think it can happen in the USA??? go read your history (what hasn't been "corrected"), it has happened.

Want a REALLY scary thought to add to that??? Afterwards, you do get ahold of your lawyer, you want something done!!! The lawyer checks with the police, and all govt agencies, and they all say "we didn't do that!" Come in and file a crime report.....

What might happen if the list of FOID holders (like CCW holders or any permit holders) gets stolen/hacked, released on the web, or otherwise available to the criminal underworld??

Sure, times change, attitudes change, and we all hope to be led into a brighter tomorrow. But when it comes to gun control we aren't being led, we are being driven, and just because you're in the front of the pack doesn't mean those in the back don't feel the whips.

I don't mean to pick on you, specifically, I'm just saying some extreme things to make a point. IF we don't stop it now, we ARE going to suffer, more, later.

Their foot IS in the door, the camel's nose is under the tent, we have very little chance of undoing what has already been done, (and in some places, done for generations) but we should not be helping them or just meekly allowing them to continue.

do you know the difference between a serf and a slave?

The spelling.

[Spats McGee]

Originally Posted by kmw1954

Spats I also mentioned that a UBC is supposed to be about the person making the transaction and not the item being bought or sold so how is that different than what I suggested? The individual is processing through a Check only their way they have to do it every time they make a purchase and then pay a fee also. Sounds to me like a revenue generator.

I think I know which statement of mine you're talking about, but am not entirely certain. You said, and I'm going to edit to narrow the focus and underline for emphasis:

.....comprehensive background check just one time.....show this card whenever a purchase is made and at the same time the seller could also provide one so I as the buyer can have somewhat of an assurance that I am not buying a gun that was just used in a robbery or murder.

Under this system, the buyer has no way of knowing whether the gun 'was used in a robbery or murder.' That was the point I'm trying to make. You could be relatively certain that the buyer had not committed such a crime as of the time this UFOID was issued, but that's all you'd know. Let's say that I get this UFOID and decide to kill my second cousin. Seventy-two hours later, I sell the gun in a private sale. Present my UFOID card, sell the gun and the seller has no way of knowing that it had, in fact, been used in a murder.

Originally Posted by kmw1954

Also as has been brought up, times and societies change, populations and voters attitudes change. At some point something is going to happen, may not be tomorrow or not this decade but it will happen at the present speed and course we are on now. So ask yourself which way would you want it to be? No this does not give me the "Warm Fuzzies" either and I just hope that I will be passed on when we as a society finally arrive at this point.

I'll pass on trying to appease the antis. They're like the Terminator. They don't know mercy. They don't know pain. They will never stop.

Originally Posted by kmw1954

As far as FOID holders not owning guns, Why Not? Long ago I lived in Illinois and had a FOID, got divorced and sold all my guns though I still had my card. My older brother also now has an FOID and no longer possesses any firearms because of physical limitations. small sample size but a valid sample all the same.

But you were a gun owner, as was your older brother. What possible reason would drive someone who had no intentions of owning a gun to get one of these UFOIDs?

[JERRYS.]

Originally Posted by Koda94

Is it possible?
Im curious how many gun rights supporters, especially the most ardent gun rights supporters, would support universal background checks (UBC) on all sales including gun shows and private sales (FTF) if there was no registration scheme included with the background check?
And how would such a registration-less UBC work?

you offer giving up something but the other side doesn't have to do the same. you are not a very good negotiator. BTW, I've grown quite tired of people negotiating away our 2nd amendment rights.

[kmw1954]

44 AMP & Spats McGee, thank you for the dialog you both made some very compelling points. I am not in favor of that scenario or the one that keeps being presently proposed. Just putting it forward as an alternative to what is being pushed. There is no perfect solution and I keep preaching that we cannot legislate morality or values to a anarchist crowd or society.

ATM the greatest thing I fear are these Red Flag laws I find it hard to believe that they are any kind of Constitutional. I have also written to each of my US and State Rep's, Senators and Assembly persons stating my position on UBC and that they are still highly flawed and crippled because of HIPPA Privacy Laws. That they will never prevent criminals or mentally defective/deficient/altered persons from obtaining firearms.

[American Man]

Originally Posted by kmw1954

I have also written to each of my US and State Rep's, Senators and Assembly persons stating my position on UBC and that they are still highly flawed and crippled because of HIPPA Privacy Laws. That they will never prevent criminals or mentally defective/deficient/altered persons from obtaining firearms.

So you think a new weaponized database with everyone's medical records and history is going to make America safer? How about all these convicted felons and parolees roaming around out there with guns right now? I'm sure someone said a while back, lets make a system so we can put all these felons in a database and prevent them from buying guns.

Red flag laws, the Hippa argument... all just used to keep people fighting and dividing. All in the name of common sense. I can't wait till they come up with a solution so I don't have to have an alarm system or lock my doors... I' sure the gov't is not going to let me down.

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

do you know the difference between a serf and a slave?

The spelling.

The rest of your post is awesome but this part is especially so

[doofus47]

UBC w/out Registration is a canard. It's a 3 play chess move.
1. Pass UBC w/out Registration
2. UBC doesn't work b/c:
a. people w/no records decide to do bad.
b. people with records ask "clean" friends to buy them guns
c. people with records steal guns from other people
d. people with records buy guns from "clean" dealers.
e. Etc. resulting in "bad things."
3. Gov't throws up its hands and says "well, I guess we do need a registration to fix the loopholes."
4. UBC with Registration. Checkmate.

[buck460XVR]

While I admit there are a few folks who might buy all their guns FTF, for the most part, we already have successful UBCs for, IMHO, about 90-95% of the guns legally bought and sold in this country. The loopholes are not that big, nor are they many, when it comes to legal gun sales. Those folks who sell guns FTF legally for the most part, again, IMHO, are pretty particular who they sell their guns to. Add to this, twenty-one states and Washington DC have extended the background check requirement beyond federal law to at least some private sales. This means that any new legislation for UBCs will affect a very minute portion of gun sales and thus it's impact will be almost negligible when it comes to reducing violence with guns. Yet, this is a very passionate and argumentative subject.

[JohnKSa]

Off-topic posts have been deleted. Let's keep this firearms/RKBA related.

[44 AMP]

Why is it that when they tell us about stocks that "past performance is no guarantee of future results" people nod and say "that makes sense" but when it comes to firearms, people claim that a bad background always means bad behavior in the future and that a good (clean) background ensures good behavior in the future those same people nod, cheer and accept it as if it were Holy Writ???

UBC's without registration may be a canard, but UBC's WITH registration are the same canard, just with fewer intermediate steps.

The entire idea that laws prevent crime is a lie of the same ilk. Laws do not prevent crime, only provide the legal framework for punishment after the fact.

What prevents crime if the belief in the minds of people that they WILL be caught and that the punishment is far, far worse than any benefit they get from committing the crime. I don't see that we have that in the US today, not to the degree we once had.

Can we get that back? (did we ever really have it? or did we just think we did?) How do we do it? I don't have the answers to this, or at least not answers that are politically acceptable today....

What seems to be fashionable today is to keep adding laws only the innocent will obey and mostly ignoring the guilty, or just token punishment when/if they get caught.

The system isn't completely broken, but it is badly out of alignment and nearly every proposed "fix" only seems to further reduce the stability.

We are, in many places, at or even past the point where the STATE assumes you are a bad guy in waiting if you want a gun, and requires what they deem proof that you are not. Every time you want a gun. OR every so often, based on some arbitrary bureaucratically determined expiration date.

To me this seems at odds with the basic concept of innocent until proven guilty and doesn't seem to square well with the ideals expressed in "Land of the Free".

Yet. here we are.....

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 44_AMP

What prevents crime if the belief in the minds of people that they WILL be caught and that the punishment is far, far worse than any benefit they get from committing the crime. I don't see that we have that in the US today, not to the degree we once had.

Can we get that back? (did we ever really have it? or did we just think we did?) How do we do it? I don't have the answers to this, or at least not answers that are politically acceptable today....

And no laws, no background checks, pretty much nothing can predict or prevent a guy like the Las Vegas shooter, who was completely "clean" from a criminal history perspective, from doing what he did. Future punishment was not a concern for him, since he apparently expected to die from the incident anyway.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Yes.
Not many.

Not true.
Mainly because "most" have already allowed it to get this far, with effetely ZERO resistance.

but we are not being offered such

And that right there is the problem folks.
Anyone want to guess why?

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by jimbob86

Nope. I'm done "compromising".

"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

I'm Done playing. Virginia is Done playing. Free America is Done playing.

Convince me I'm wrong.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of gun owners are lazy, apathetic, and out of touch.
Unfortunately, the American culture is shifting, in fact it has been happening for decades.
Unfortunately, those of us who understand the basis for the 2A, such support such ideals... Are dying off.
Unfortunately, the left knows it.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by TBM900

Unfortunately, the vast majority of gun owners are lazy, apathetic, and out of touch.

I hafta take offense to this. Your statement is far from the truth. "Vast majority" - means almost all or something like 90% or more, but less than unanimous. If you were correct, we'd already be without guns.

Originally Posted by TBM900

Unfortunately, the American culture is shifting, in fact it has been happening for decades.

Kinda how it has worked since the beginning of time. Folks move in and bring other ideas/ideals. The priorities of the folks within a culture change as technology, knowledge and skills change. When I was a kid the majority of folks lived in rural areas and most everyone I knew came from a farm. That ain't true anymore. Nothing ever stays the same.

Originally Posted by TBM900

Unfortunately, those of us who understand the basis for the 2A, such support such ideals... Are dying off.

Again, not so much. One only has to look at numbers to see that the majority of Americans, even them old folks on their death bed, are in support of UBCs. Many claim, a Vast Majority. Many of those so ardent against UBCs are young folks and those who are new to the shooting sports and have had little or nothing to do with gun rights other than the last decade. Maybe part of the problem with recruitment of younger folks is because we are driving them off with statements like "the vast majority of gun owners are lazy, apathetic, and out of touch".

Originally Posted by TBM900

Unfortunately, the left knows it.

....and apparently from your post, the right knows it too. With the challenges we face as responsible gun owners, we cannot afford to divide ourselves with chest beating and belittling our fellow gun enthusiasts. We need to nurture, educate, and embrace, not chastise and force them away. We have enough enemies, we do not need to make ourselves one too.

[44 AMP]

Unfortunately, the vast majority of gun owners are lazy, apathetic, and out of touch.

I disagree. At least with the lazy apathetic part. Out of touch? maybe, but who isn't, about SOME things?

I think the "vast majority" of gun owners are just that, gun owners, and not gun enthusiasts, (some gun "owners" are not gun "users") and like most people, don't get very involved in things that don't have a direct impact on their personal lives. I think the vast majority have too many other things in their lives that are more important to their day to day lives. Or, they think they do...

The guy who gets to go hunting 3 or 4 times during the season, deer, duck, whatever, has a gun, maybe two, and isn't planning on getting a new one for some years, IF the budget allows, after the bills are paid, the kids have shoes, etc, they don't care much about UBCs or another new form they'll have to fill out WHEN they are able to get another gun.

They're in the polls "supporting" UBCs because all they know (or care) about them is what the pollsters tell them. They get told something like "you need to support this, so wife-beaters don't get guns", and so, of course, they do.

They DON'T get told that "wife beaters" have been legally prohibited from owning guns since 1968....

They don't get told that, in order to sell their duck gun to their neighbor whom they have known for 30 years that they have to take the gun and the neighbor to an FFL dealer (during business hours) and pay a fee...

The "polls" are BS, about who supports what. You can get ANY result you desire from a poll, by tailoring the questions and the "sample polled".

Poll a hundred people, or even a thousand, and absolutely for sure that what the other 330MILLION people in this country think, you betcha!!

Its not just smoke and mirrors, it's also deliberate lies, both of omission and of commission.

The vast majority of gun owners don't stand "the watch on the wall" guarding their rights. Until it becomes something that touches their personal lives in an unpleasant way. THen, some do "awake" but others never do...

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by buck460XVR

I hafta take offense to this.

That is on you as nothing I stated was directed at you (or anyone else) specifically.

Your statement is far from the truth.

Feel free to factually refute it...

"Vast majority" - means almost all or something like 90% or more

There is no such stipulation in the definition.

If you were correct, we'd already be without guns.

"We" have been steadily losing our 2A rights, and accepting continued infringements, for nearly a century.
In many areas of the nation guns are forbidden.
Many people are forbidden to own guns.
Many people are having theirs restricted or taken away.
Those are all facts

Nothing ever stays the same.

Cite where I stated it did... or should...
The fact of the matter is that you missed my entire point, which is a rather simple one.
That is that the culture is shifting away from a "gun culture", and away from a 2A ideals culture.
Culturally speaking, if no other infringements were to be made by the left, odds our kind will likely go the way of the Dodo, or at least close to it.

One only has to look at numbers

Okay, lets look at them...
Using the most generous estimates, something like 100 million Americans may own a firearm.
Now look at the supposed "gold standard" of 2A supporters, the NRA... ~5.5 million members
Mix in the the ranks of the GOA at ~2 million members
So we're at at 7.5 million members, lets include the smaller more obscure ranks and round up....
10 million members, or roughly 10% of the gun owning population
So the "vast majority" of gun owners are NOT supporting the 2A through the easiest of means....Hmmm

Lets look another another set of numbers...
AR15.com has something around 500,000 users, arguably the largest "gun forum" on the internet (feel free to correct me)
A highly sponsored, highly advertised, highly organized "rally" in DC drew barely a few hundred people, about 500 from the pic/videos I saw.
"Oh but people came and went"
Okay, lets double the number to 1,000
Then lets factor in cloaking devices and double to 2,000
Better include those who have the natural power of invisibility and round up to 5,000
That would be just 1% of their entire user base
One-percent

Care to talk more about my assertion of laziness and apathy?

Maybe part of the problem with recruitment of younger folks is because we are driving them off with statements like "the vast majority of gun owners are lazy, apathetic, and out of touch".

That statement just proved my entire point... literally.

we cannot afford to divide ourselves with chest beating and belittling our fellow gun enthusiasts

Cite specifically where I did either....
Frankly such an assertion sounds like leftist speak, they ignore facts and rely largely on emotion.
If facts hurt feelings, then maybe gun owners should grow some thicker skin.
After all, how are they going to handle losing even more rights as that is the direction we are heading.

We need to nurture, educate, and embrace

No offense intended guy... but that sounds like it was taken right from AOC or Sanders rally.

No what "we" need to do FIRST, is admit the dire straights we are in.
This ongoing denial, the burying of heads in the sand, the kicking the can down the road mentality... all need to stop.
I'm seeing it right here in this very thread.

not chastise and force them away.

If my lil ole words and opinion do such a thing... then we are more screwed than even I imagined.

We have enough enemies, we do not need to make ourselves one too.

So what you are saying then is that facts hurt feelings?
How can "we" stand up to the left if "we" cannot even admit where we are at?

Listen guy, if my opinions trigger such angst, I truly do not know what to tell you other than they were sincerely not meant to. I am simply stating what I see from my perspective of living well over half a century on this earth, most of which spent using firearms, over half of it in law enforcement, being rabid a student of history, by nature being an intellectually curious fact seeker, and a genuine 'people watcher'.

20-30 years ago I would have read my own words and told myself I was nuts.
Today, I honestly fear for the future of the Republic, I truly do.
And I know for a fact I am not the only one.
I stand by my original statement.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I disagree. At least with the lazy apathetic part.

I'm not really sure how to respond to your post as you first stated that you "disagreed", but then went on to literally describe many gun owners as being apathetic.

As for the part about "polls", I never cited or even mentioned any.

Please read my entire response to "buck460XVR", as maybe it will clarify some things for you regarding my opinion and original statement.

Also keep in mind that opinions are just that, everyone is free to have their own
I actually hope I am entirely wrong, that we will pull our poop together and fix our broken nation.
In fact, the "wronger" I am the better!