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Old April 18, 2018, 02:21 AM   #26
rock185
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I think such a design might have been of interest 125 years or so ago. But IMHO, even if produced, it would have been short lived as much better designs were already in production, with more on the horizon.....ymmv
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Old April 18, 2018, 07:42 AM   #27
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Those chamber tubes look pretty fat. It would be no biggy to make them strong enough to contain the pressure all by themself, tround style.

I bet you could figure out a way to dispense with the block altogether.
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Old April 19, 2018, 11:09 PM   #28
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I bet you could figure out a way to dispense with the block altogether.
Yeah, bore the chambers into a cylinder!
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Old April 20, 2018, 06:00 PM   #29
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I am of the opinion that the downward blast of gas from the bottom of the barrel will damage the gun, and certainly be unpleasant to the shooter. I have seen blown cartridges wreck the magazine of auto pistols.

Consider the blast of gasses escaping from the barrel/cylinder gap of a revolver. Shooters have been burned, even badly injured, by this jet of hot gas.

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Old April 21, 2018, 06:40 AM   #30
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Prototype update

I made a harmonica derringer prototype out of paper, here’s some pictures:

https://imgur.com/1P1vBJs
https://imgur.com/dBNrudR
https://imgur.com/mgsvSGu
https://imgur.com/Fwd8W1U
https://imgur.com/AKrVuz5

The harmonica (magazine) holds 11 rounds, and i made it heavy, 7mm walls between each chamber. Since i aiming for a .22lr it could be made lighter and smaller, or in the same length containing more rounds.

I think i will use mild steel sheet to make this gun, except for the hammer and trigger that need to be hard. The chamber and the barrel will be made of tempered 4340 steel, i think, i read that it is stronger than 4140 and can be brought pre-hard, so it doesn’t require any heat treatment after working with it. But feel free to give me your thoughts about steel choice of this gun.

I will use a ball bearing detent, or two, to index the harmonica.

However, the advantages of this harmonica derringer against a revolver, is that it holds more rounds. You could easily carry two magazines, which will give you 22 rounds, in this case. The risk of a accidental discharge is very low, or basically non existent, if you don’t carry the magazine inserted into the gun.

The disadvantage is that it’s bulky when the magazine is inserted into the gun, and you have to manually operate the magazine, i didn’t find any good solution other than that, and i don’t think it will be that much of an issue, it will still be easy and fast operated.

If the harmonica is positioned below the barrel instead of along, it could be made less bulky when inserted, the bad side of this, is that the magazine will travel up and block the sight, and in this derringer case there is no space for a design like that, since your trigger finger is located below.

I think i will make a version with the magazine below, but i think i will use a open bolt action instead of a hammer.

Eventually i will experiment with my other designs to, but i think many of them will fail and be unsafe to shoot.

Anyway, give me your thoughts about this project.
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Old April 21, 2018, 02:40 PM   #31
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Alright, you have deviated from your original concept in that bulleted cartridges now may pass the barrel stub. That is, now the entire round is contained within the "magazine." With your original concept, unfired rounds would not pass the barrel. Essentially you have recreated the harmonica pistol.

You must have some type of retention of the cartridges in the magazine plus an ejection method.

And, how would you plan on carry of this pistol so that it would be easily and quickly accessible?


Further..........use of an open bolt, you've created a feed strip like the Benet-Mercie machine gun of old. And added complication into the design.

What does such a design offer, other than novelty, over conventional pistol/revolvers designs already in use?

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Last edited by Bob Wright; April 21, 2018 at 04:10 PM. Reason: Second thoughts.
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Old April 23, 2018, 03:41 PM   #32
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Talk about concealing.
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Old April 25, 2018, 06:40 PM   #33
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I think, it may be a better solution, i though about a design which got a horizontal magazine, like a ordinary vertical one, it’s loaded with rounds and pushed by a spring, no harmonica chamber.

The barrel of the gun chamber the round, like a ordinary pistol chamber, and the magazine is located behind the barrel, and under the bore. The walls of the barrel block the rounds in the magazine from falling out, when you want to reload you simply push the barrel down so the magazine gets inline the bore, and a round is chambered, then just push the magazine up, inline the firing pin, and you good to go.

When you want to extract the fired round, pull the barrel upwards instead, and either the round will fly out by the pressure left, or a ejector/extractor (whats the different?) could be used.

Do you get my design? Give me your thoughts.
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Old April 25, 2018, 08:27 PM   #34
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Do you get my design?
In a word, no. None of this is well thought out, none is detailed enough to critique, and none of it has a useful purpose.

Quote:
Give me your thoughts.
Quote:
a ejector/extractor (whats the different?) could be used.
Honestly, it is a little hard to take seriously a firearm designer who doesn't know the difference.
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Old April 25, 2018, 09:08 PM   #35
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Better check with the patent office, think most of this has already been figured out for you.







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Old April 25, 2018, 10:34 PM   #36
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Other than posts about some unworkable, unnessary designs the only other post by you was adding a safety to a cap and ball revolver, and if you can get cylinders for 6 shot revolvers that can be loaded with more shots.
Maybe you need to learn how various firearms actually operate before you try to reinvent a very successful wheel by making it square!
Do you actually own any firearms? Have you ever shot a handgun?
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Old April 27, 2018, 05:59 PM   #37
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Yea, a semi automatic single shot would be more useful.
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Old April 27, 2018, 07:14 PM   #38
Bob Wright
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Each of your designs are designs that require two hands to function. A handgun should be just that, a one hand gun.

I'm not sure what you are trying to solve with such complicated designs. Why make a handgun that that does not offer any advantage over existing principles? In fact, not as handy, fast handling, nor likely to be as accurate?

I fail to see your reasoning.

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Last edited by Bob Wright; April 27, 2018 at 07:35 PM.
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Old April 28, 2018, 01:00 PM   #39
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Money,

Before you proceed with your rather complicated Rube Goldberg pistol, consider the auto loading pistol: Most auto loaders use the recoil of the cartridge to move the breech block (Bolt, slide) rearward, and a compressed spring to move it back in place. The rearward movement extracts and ejects the spent cartridge case and cocks the action while compressing the recoil spring. The magazine follower raises the next cartridge in the magazine into the path of the oncoming breech block. The compressed spring begins to drive the breechblock forward, stripping the fresh cartridge from the magazine and chambering it leaving the action ready for the next pull of the trigger. All of this happens in the blink of an eye in pistols that are reliable, powerful and very accurate, and in a very compact package.

What does your theory offer that improves on this process?


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Old April 28, 2018, 03:54 PM   #40
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I admire and respect creativity and innovation. Unfortunately as Rembrandt's photos show the "harmonica" design is nothing new. Monday you may have re-created this 'wheel' but it is a re-creation of a failed design. As an unusual weapon of days gone by, it would possibly have value to a collector. As a viable option for modern use, not so much.
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Old April 29, 2018, 10:06 AM   #41
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Two excellent examples of a vertical harmonica gun

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-pocket-pistol


https://s3.amazonaws.com/mgm-content...on_ger_640.jpg

The hungarian Minimax and the german Reform Pistol.
There is no better solution to build a vertical harmonica gun.
I hope you like it.
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Old May 2, 2018, 07:45 AM   #42
4V50 Gary
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It's an updated centerfire version of Johnathan Browning's design.

It will have gas leak like a revolver does because of the gap between the chamber mouth and the forcing cone.

Second, it will be heavier than a pistol that uses a sheetmetal magazine.
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Old May 2, 2018, 07:54 AM   #43
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The future is caseless or energy (plasma) weapons.

BTW, caseless is full circle to muzzle loading with respects to ammunition not having a case.
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Old May 2, 2018, 09:36 AM   #44
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Not trying to stifle your creativity, but the first question you should ask is "What problem does this solve?" and "What can this do better than what currently exists?". If it doesn't really do either, you're not going to have much of a market for it. My issues with it.

#1. Not sure what problem it solves or that it does something better than what currently exists. Is it more reliable, more concealable, easier to operate, more accurate, lighter, etc...

#2. You drew up the gun as a .22 LR which is a horrible defensive cartridge, especially if the other guy is carrying something bigger. You could conceivably use any rimmed cartridge, but your design requires that your "cylinder" be sufficiently robust to not blow up when fired.

#3. Going with a "straight" cylinder adds unnecessary weight compared to an autoloader. An autoloader breech is reinforced to handle the forces from the explosion of the gun powder so the mags can be very thin and light. You can also fit more rounds in the same space with a regular mag since the rounds can be stacked together and the breech contains the blast.

#4. Creating a "vertical cylinder" adds unnecessary bulk compared to a rotating cylinder. It makes it more unwieldy and possibly less reliable dues to the issues mentioned. Also as mentioned, it looks like it would need 2 hands to operate.

A few items you could do for your current design:

1. Make your mag extend to include the entire bullet like on a revolver. That way your mag/cylinder can be like the forcing cone on a revolver. You had better have a VERY RELIABLE AND PRECISE way to line the mag/cylinder with the barrel, or you're looking to blow up the gun.

2. Figure out a way to reinforce whatever holds the rounds in the back and protect the back of the rounds to prevent accidental discharge. Without a barrel, it won't have that much force, but the mag will still direct the bullet and hot gasses forward.
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Old May 2, 2018, 02:39 PM   #45
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Dear Mr. Gary,
you are absolutely right about the inacceptable gas leak (this is for the hungarian Minimax).
The german version with the catchy name Reform Pistole has no gas leak because of the en bloc construction.
Btw, I love that old school mechanics so much.
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Old May 3, 2018, 11:01 AM   #46
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I've avoided commenting on this, but I think we have exhausted the positive critiques.

I would prefer a reliable break action single shot derringer to a harmonics pistol. I could break and reload every bit as quickly with practice and it would be much simpler and more reliable.

Harmonic rifles used an indexed cam lock, which was a heavy bulky system. Working on an interesting design for show, range play, or possibly hunting could be fun.
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Old May 3, 2018, 11:38 AM   #47
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Honestly, I think we've had enough discussion on this. If and when Monday has a workable model he wants to show us and discuss, he is certainly welcome to start a new thread.
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