Bear Spray vs. Bear Gun

[Loosedhorse]

I know this topic has come up before, so let me start out with some discussion:

I am addressing brown bear/grizzly attacks rather than black bear. I have been told that black bears are far less likely to attack, and easier to dissuade. (If I am wrong, please let me know.)

It is clear that a gun does you no good if you either can't get it into action in time, or if you are a bad shot and/or haven't practiced with your gun. So, my question has to do with, for example, a fly-fisherman who has his hands occupied when the bear approaches. For this reason, I'm going to specify I'm thinking of a pistol in a chest holster, rather than a slung long gun. (I've also been told--just told, no documentation--that the rangers investigating a bear shooting incident are more likely to see one involving a handgun as defensive, and more likely to view a guy with a long gun as maybe "looking for trouble"; so let's stick with handgun). Similarly, I'd want the pepper-spray on me, easily accessible.

The USFWS is on record as being a BIG fan of pepper-spray. However, I think there are good reasons to be suspicious of their data. They compare outcomes in pepper-spray use and gun use against attacking bears, but the types of attacks in those cases may vary. If a person uses a gun on a bear, that's a HUGE investigation with lots of penalties in the balance; I would therefore think that someone armed only with a gun would not shoot at a curious bear or a posturing bear, but ONLY at a charging bear. A person with bear spray might use a lower threshold for use, and if so then comparing bear-spray-use "attacks" to gun-use attacks may be apples to oranges.

Here's the study, if you'd like to review it yourself: http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/bear_coug...prayAlaska.pdf

On the subject of carrying both, I talked with one Alaskan who HAS been attacked and injured by a brown bear, many years ago. He carries a gun only, saying there's no time to get out the pepper-spray, and then--if it doesn't work--get out the gun. He wants his one chance to be a firearm, if he's attacked again.

So, what do you all think?

My ideal situation would be to be in a group, with at least one person carrying spray, and at least one person--always close together--carrying a firearm. However, sometimes we're alone.

(PS: AVOIDING bear attacks is paramount. Whether we choose to carry a gun or spray, if a bear attacks and injures a human, and the rangers can find out which bear it was, it is likely that the bear will be designated a threat to public safety. If so, it will be destroyed. None of us want that, just like we don't want to be mauled in the first place. So don't feed the bears...especially not with yourself!

I highly recommend the avoidance advice in this book, though I am less certain of the pepper-spray-only advice; I wonder sometimes if some people perhaps count a bear's death as a bigger tragedy than some tourist's death. Still, I didn't want anyone to be able to distort my words into some false premise; so, to be clear: I would NEVER want to get attacked by a bear so I "get to" shoot it.)

[357 Python]

I understand that brown bears and grizzlies are far more dangerous than black bears. With this understanding I would carry a substantial handgun (44 Magnum or similar) and maybe a rifle of similar caliber. This way you have it covered close up or at a distance. Remember bears can run pretty fast and can cover distance quicker than most people can react.

[2ndsojourn]

Forget the bear spray. Go with a 44 mag.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bear...NxoiCB_yiH7CM:

[jmr40]

You're really talking about 3 different bear. Typical black bear are 150-250 lbs, anything over 300 is a big bear. They get larger, up to 600+, but those are rare and don't get that big by hanging around humans. Most big ones are never seen, it is the smaller, younger bear that typically cause problems. Few really attack humans, but once they figure out the backpacks and tents contain food will often raid them for the food. The humans aren't usually the focus of the attack, but can be injured.

Any handgun that will stop a larger human male will work as well on MOST black bear. There is always the odd chance of an encounter with one of the big ones. If a black bear attacks you, he is doing it to eat you, playing dead will just get you dead. Fight back with what ever you have. The bear should win, but the bear doesn't know that. Lots of attacks have been stopped by humans with sticks, rocks, knives or even bare hands because they put up a fight. I carry a 10mm, 357 mag or bear spray around black bear and feel good about either of them

Inland Grizzly aren't much bigger than typical black bear nor harder to stop. Less than 100 lbs larger on average, but much more aggressive. They are far more likely to defend young and their territory. Most black bear will run, even if you encounter one with cubs. But most grizzly attacks are meant to stop the threat, not to eat you. Unless you have a gun or bear spray you aren't going to win the fight. Best to play dead. When you are no longer seen as a threat they may leave. Moving up to more powerful handguns might be a good idea, but the hand cannons such as the 454's and 500 aren't really needed. The only place I've camped in grizzly country was in Yellowstone. Never saw any, but kept a hot loaded 10mm and bear spray handy.

The coastal brown bear are just larger grizzlies, often reaching 1000 lbs or more. Same personality as Grizzly, just much bigger and harder to stop. But also only located in specific spots, very few people will ever be in a position to be attacked by one. I'll never be in that spot, but if I were this is where I'd want a powerful rifle, not any handgun.

[ShootistPRS]

Loosedhorse,
if you are going to be fly fishing or any other kind of fishing involving the time around the salmon run you will need a spotter. Say there are two or three of you fishing, it is a must that you have an individual watching for bears. They rarely charge fisherman but they like to steal fish. When one approaches you drag the fish onto land as you back out of the area then cut your line. If you don't have a fish on you just back out of the area. Grizzly bears are fairly relaxed and more tolerant during the salmon run.

If you are going fishing any other time of the year then it is less likely to see bears. You don't get to stand your ground against a grizzly. Most people will tell you to move out of the area without running. Call before your trip and talk to the game department and rangers of the area you will be in. Ask them what the conditions are like and what is known to work. In some cases you will need a guide or a ranger to fish. They often act as spotters for groups of fishermen.

[Don Fischer]

I would only carry pepper spray. I lived up there a couple years and never saw a grizzly and the big brown's were a long way off. I would not carry a handgun for no other reason than a handgun I'd consider, I can't handle. Facing a charging bear, should it happen, is one thing but a wounded bear looking for revenge a whole new deal. When I was there a couple friend's and I went in fishing now and then. Never saw a bear but saw a track on a gravel bar that would make superman think twice. After that we started carrying my Rem 660 in 308 with 200gr handloads.

I'm pretty sure that we had been in the area of bears but we did make a lot of noise and never ventured far from the river without the rifle. I have my doubt's that I'd ever even need the pepper spray!

[Loosedhorse]

Originally Posted by ShootistPRS

You don't get to stand your ground against a grizzly.

True, but you don't get to outrun them, either.


I appreciate your points; I like warning, I like avoidance, I like groups.

Originally Posted by Don Fischer

a handgun I'd consider, I can't handle.

Important point.

[turkeestalker]

As large a handgun as I can handle proficiently.
I've no use for a seasoning spray to entice them.

[Wyosmith]

I live near an area that is heavily populated with grizzlies. Not close enough to worry about walking around the land, but I hunt there all the time and I see grizzlies nearly every time I go.
I carry spray on my left side and a fire arm.

My way of "being careful" is as follows:

My spray is always on my left side either on my belt or on my pack strap.

I learn to use left hand to spray the pepper. If I ever have to spray a bear it's safe to assume I see the bear before he's in a running charge, so I'd have a few seconds to get it out and pointed at the bear.

The firearm is at the ready at all times. If you see a grizzly at dangerous range (75 yards or less) you bring the weapon up and sights go to the threat. Forget the spray initially.
Now, if you have a few seconds you have the firearm up and ready, and THEN reach for the spray, in that order.

I am of the belief that 95% of the time the spray is going to work, and if the bear is not already charging he's not committed to the attack yet, so you have the initiative.

If the bear has the initiative you have only 1-3 seconds to take that initiative away from the attacker and that means accurate fire, not spray.

[Itsa Bughunt]

Other:
12g slug gun and bear spray.

[Koda94]

I would therefore think that someone armed only with a gun would not shoot at a curious bear or a posturing bear, but ONLY at a charging bear. A person with bear spray might use a lower threshold for use, and if so then comparing bear-spray-use "attacks" to gun-use attacks may be apples to oranges.

I would think there would be a huge advantage to using spray early on before the bear charges...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

No one has discussed this on gun, hunting or outdoor forums before? Well ...

Anything new to be said?

Pepper Spray
Appropriate Gun
Appropriate Gun and Pepper Spray

Know what you are doing.

And the ever popular:

Why are you putting on your sneakers, you can't outrun a bear!
---- Now what's the answer folks?

TV Commercial for honey and how to use it on your friend.

Stories from outdoor shows:

a. Norway - three tourist women go to a park with bears. They are supposed to a rifle as specified in the rules. They refuse because they have the right attitude which the bears will recognize. The bear eats two, one escapes by jumping off a cliff. Lands in scree and seriously injured.

b. Norway again - IIRC. Cruise ship lands party on bear island. The boat skipper has a 22 LR revolver. Bear eats him as it takes numerous rounds. Everyone else flees.

My point - this is an old and well researched topic. I'd like to see something beyond the usual for it to continue. Maybe if we get to the point of whether you carry a plasma rifle or use a telepathic antibear helmet, it will be interesting again. Just old cliches - not so interesting as anyone interested can google the zillions of posts.

[44 AMP]

How about HAIRSPRAY??? And a dependable LIGHTER???


Cheaper than BEAR SPRAY

and, I would expect at least as effective. A couple feet of FLAME might even be more effective convincing a bear to go elsewhere. Ok, maybe not hairspray, maybe starting fluid spray (aka ether), or any other volatile under pressure with a reliable ignition source...

AND a decent handgun!

Every time the topic comes up, I'm reminded of Elmer Keith's advice about "what handgun for bear defense". I won't try to quote exactly, but essentially his advice was that any "decent" handgun (and I think he meant 38 or larger) would allow you to prevail against any bear, IF YOU KEPT YOUR NERVE. Every bear opens its mouth when it attacks, and IF YOU KEPT YOUR NERVE, you could shoot the bear through the mouth, breaking its neck.

Elmer never promised you wouldn't get clawed, or "chawed", only that, IF YOU KEPT YOUR NERVE, you would prevail over the bear.

I do agree with the advice NOT TO RUN. Expedite your withdrawal, but do not RUN, because its a nearly hardwired predator response to chase that which runs. Particularly good advice when facing a cat, but still sound when its a bear, as well.

[laytonj1]

I think you would be better off asking the bears what they would prefer and go from there.

Jim

[Koda94]

A man wakes up one morning in Alaska to find a bear on his roof. So he looks in the yellow pages and sure enough, there's an ad for 'Bear Removers.' He calls the number, and the bear remover says he'll be over in 30 minutes.

The bear remover arrives, and gets out of his van. He's got a ladder, a baseball bat, a shotgun and a mean old pit bull.

'What are you going to do,' the homeowner asks?

'I'm going to put this ladder up against the roof, and then I'm going to go up there and knock the bear off the roof with this baseball bat. When the bear falls off, the pit bull is trained to grab his testicles and not let go. The bear will then be subdued enough for me to put him in the cage in the back of the van.'

He hands the shotgun to the homeowner.

'What's the shotgun for?' asks the homeowner.

'If the bear knocks me off the roof, shoot the dog.

[Loosedhorse]

this is an old and well researched topic.

Okay. What did the research show, and should we take its conclusions to heart?

I cited "the" study--the one that 'most everyone cites--in the OP. I also nudged people toward the fact (mentioned in the study) that only 9 of the 72 bear-spray defenses they use to make their conclusions actually involved a charging bear (all 9 involved brown bears).

So, I wanted to know how people figure that into the mix. It would have been nice to hear how you do. (The two stories you provided tell us that no spray and no gun, and only a .22 LR, are bad choices for bear attack defense; well, good tips both, but not really the question I was asking.)

I'd like to see something beyond the usual for it to continue.

Well, I had wanted to get a few more responses in before summarizing, but if this poll's being shut down earlier than I thought...

Interesting that two persons said "other" because each did not feel any handgun was the right call here--had to be a long gun. That is worth considering, even though I had before that ruled out long guns, envisioning that a slung long gun would be slower to get into action than a handgun in a chest holster. So, I need to think about that some more.

I appreciate Wyosmith's careful answer. He seems to speak for the plurality of those who responded to the poll, and gives what sounds to me as solid reasoning. Koda94 and others seem to agree.

ShootistPRS steps outside the poll to offer additional advice on early warning and prevention, and on using the local knowledge and personnel to accomplish that.

I hadn't up till now voted in my own poll; at this point, I'll go ahead and vote for option #4...but I'll keep that long gun advice in mind, and mull it over some more.

Thanks for the responses, everyone.

[Itsa Bughunt]

I think bear spray has proven to be effective most of the time. An article in Outdoor magazine had a group of backpackers using bear spray as a deterrent by lightly spraying parts of their backpacks with it. They encountered no bears at all.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My point is that a simple rehash isn't that useful.

Thus, I'm closing it.

[Evan Thomas]

Glenn, I need to butt in to correct a dangerous misconception about bear spray.

Originally Posted by Itsa Bughunt

An article in Outdoor magazine had a group of backpackers using bear spray as a deterrent by lightly spraying parts of their backpacks with it. They encountered no bears at all.

NO. Please, never do this. Bear spray is extremely effective when used as directed, which means spraying it in the bear's face. However, it does not work like insect repellent. It will not repel bears when sprayed on yourself, your tent, etc.

It will attract them, and from some distance.

These backpackers were lucky that they didn't encounter a bear -- if they had, the bear may well have been all like "Oooh, seasoning -- yum!"