HK USP for IDPA CDP

[dawg05]

Trying not to get repetitious here with the whole new guy wanting to know what you need in IDPA. I have a HK USP Compact in .45 with express sights, and a stock Glock 20. I am looking at purchasing a HK USP .45 full size, a Kimber Tactical Custom II, or a STI Trojan 5.0 for competition in the CDP division. Do any of you know if these pistols are even legal for competition in the CDP or if I'd just be buying a nice gun. Will the HK Compact be able to hang with the 1911's or is a 5" barrel better? Through everybody's posts here I have figured out all of the other equipment, but am stuck on the pistol issue. Any help would be great. Thanks in advance!

[fyrestarter]

First off, welcome....it's nice to see more competition shooters in the forum.

Secondly, I suggest you go to IDPA's website, where they give a rundown on rules governing equipment and other such matters.

http://www.idpa.com/

Check out IPSC shooting as well....they're a little more, let's say "flexible" when it comes to allowable firearm models and equipment.

http://www.uspsa.org/

[dawg05]

Thanks for the suggestions. Just trying to get the feel for what other shooters would choose to use in a match. Also am looking for some good dry fire drills. I'm stuck in Iraq and have a Beretta M9, a hand full of snap caps and tons of time so i figure why not use the time to work on some drills. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

[Jim Watson]

Your USP-C .45 will get you started in IDPA CDP. It wouldn't be my first choice but I would never recommend buying a dedicated gun for a sport you hadn't tried first. For that matter, your G20 would shoot in SSP. There are one of each being shot regularly at our club.

Get an open top holster for it and go to some matches before you buy new.
Then, yes a .45 USP-F, Kimber, or Trojan, will fall in CDP.
I had a USP-F that was plenty accurate and very reliable, but just too big for my hand and with a tougher trigger pull than a tuned 1911. Probably better than most out-of-the box mass production 1911s, though.

Matt Burkett has online dryfire drills that might suit your situation, if you can stay online to run them.
http://burkettvideo.com/

Steve Anderson did a book on dryfire that is said to be good.
http://www.andersonshooting.com/

[GaryXD]

I would e-mail IDPA to see if your choices are legal. Keep in mind that if your goal is winning trophies then 1911 style pistols are the clear choice in CDP. I shot a friends HK full size 45 at an IDPA match once and was startled by how slow the gun cycled. I had to wait on the gun to return to battery when making double taps.

[dukeofurl]

If I was running an HK, I would run it in SSP or ESP regardless of caliber.

Your 45 does not have to be run in CDP, in fact that places you at a disadvantage because you have mags that can accomodate 10+ rounds.

[Jim Watson]

You can't run a USP in ESP "regardless of caliber."
A .45 can't enter ESP, it's CDP or SSP depending on carry condition, ammo load, and shooter's option.

Doesn't matter, all he needs now is a good start in the sport.

And the guns he listed to start with are ok for IDPA, no need to write B'ville. Although I think the Kimber Tacticals are lightweight .45s and might not be comfortable through a match or long practice.

[dawg05]

trying to figure out the difference between CDP and SSP. the pistol thing i got, is there a difference in the COF or anything but the type of pistols allowed?

[Jim Watson]

There is no difference in CoF by Division, action type, caliber, magazine capacity, anything. Only in how you handle it.

Well, there is one. Revolvers don't do real Tactical Reloads. The rule book recommendation for SSR when a Tac Load is called for after less than six shots is to "dump empty cases and unfired rounds into your hand, stuff the whole mess in your pocket, then recharge your revolver to full capacity."

The few times I have shot stages where recovery and reuse of the partial magazine after a Tac Load was called for, they did not require the revolver shooters to dig the loose rounds or partial moon clips out of their pockets, they just threw in another six shot reload.

I went to a lot of trouble to learn how to do Tac Loads for revolvers, and nobody really knows or cares. Just as well, it is a little tedious.

[dawg05]

thanks for all the help. i think i'm going to stick with the two i have and just get some work done on them. i have a gunsmith that does alot of work with HK's so i think he can handle a trigger job. do you recommend any particular sights for the glock? i like the express sights on the hk and might consider them for the glock too. looking possibly at a fiberoptic front and two dot tritium rear also. thoughts comments concerns?

[Jim Watson]

Eyesight is very personal and individual.
I find the Express sights to be fast but not real precise.
I use a "fiber optic" front and plain black or white dot rear.
I do not see the point of a fiber optic front and tritium rear. You would not see any tritium glow in good light. In poor light you need to see the front more than you do the rear.
I have shot in low light matches and either there is just enough light to see a fiber optic or a flashlight is used. Some places do blackout events where night sights would help, but they are not common.

Shoot some matches with what you have before making big modifications or large purchases.

[dukeofurl]

You cant run a 45 HK in ESP hammer back safety off?

[Jim Watson]

Nope.

I wouldn't let you shoot with hammer back and safety off at all, per LGB pg 32 #14,

A .45 ACP cocked and locked is CDP, period.
Decock a USP .45 and shoot DA/SA in SSP if you want to.
But not ESP.

[dawg05]

I think if it came down to it, I'd shoot my HK .45 C in CDP and the Glock 20 in SSP. I think that when i manage to get out of Iraq that's what I'll shoot.

[Scooter2]

Also if you shoot CDP, you can only load 8 rounds in the mag. If you choose to shoot a 45 with the hammer down in SSP, then you can load 10 rounds.

[dawg05]

Which all works out well. The HK USP C only has a 8 round capacity. With the lengthy DA trigger pull the USP C is a pretty poor choice for the SSP and IMO better in the land of CDP. The Glock 20 can have up to 15 rounds but you are limited to 10 for current production magazines anyway. From what I've heard the Glock lives in SSP and that's what I plan on shooting. Can anyone recommend any parts or services to get done on the Glock?

[OF]

No need to go looking for pistol modifications at this point. I'd recommend against doing anything for a while until you get a feel for the gun and what you'd like to change. PLenty of the best shooter on earth running stock Glocks.

You cant run a 45 HK in ESP hammer back safety off?

Hammer back, safety off would be major-league illegal...not to mention horribly unsafe. Hammer back, safety on would but a .45USP is CDP. in any other caliber you'd be in ESP.

As was said above, 1911's dominate CDP.

- Gabe

[dawg05]

I've owned the Glock for quite some time now and have a pretty good idea on what needs to be changed on it. The trigger could use some work and not a big fan of the stock sights, will probably go with a three dot configuration of some sort. Most likley won't shoot the HK, a compact won't be competetive against a full size in most cases. Simple ballistics, shorter barrel equals less accurate firearm. I have a spring kit on order from wolf springs for the Glock and will replace all of the springs. Will also add grip tape to make it easier to hold onto the thing. Might send it off to have the magazine well beveled, forgot the vendor but can find it again. Outside those modifications I probably won't do anything. Already installed a new guiderod to replace the plastic piece of crap that came stock.

[Jim Watson]

Oh, dear.
If you put a metal guide rod in that G20, you will have transmogrified it into an ESP gun. Changing the **material** of the guide rod is specifically not allowed in SSP. Stock Service Pistol means STOCK, even if you think it is crap. Likewise, if that vendor's bevel of the magazine well is visible to the SO, it is not allowed in SSP.

PLEASE go to a few matches before you start screwing with your equipment. And maybe read the rules.

And don't think that a USP-C is so short as for "simple ballistics" to render it less accurate and "less competitive" than something else. I've seen some pretty short guns do darned well.

[Handy]

a .45USP is CDP. in any other caliber you'd be in ESP.

While CDP is .45 only (dumb), ESP is any caliber, including .45.

So, depending on whether its condition 2 or condition 1, a .45 USP could be shot in SSP, ESP or CDP.

[Jim Watson]

No.
ESP is NOT "any caliber, including .45" The LGB says:
"Handguns permitted for ENHANCED SERVICE PISTOL division must be Single Action or selective SA/DA and be of 9mm (9x19), (9x21), (9x23), .38 Super, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, .41 AE, 10mm Norma, .400 Cor-Bon and meet the following criteria:"

.45 is nowhere mentioned as a permitted ESP caliber. (Except maybe .45 GAP; I don't know if there has been a decision on that, yet.)

I will not enter a USP or any other .45 ACP in ESP at a match I am working, unless accompanied by a contrary policy position from B'ville or my AC.

[Handy]

Well Jim, it appears that me and IDPA are both confused:

ESP says that it must be only the calibers you listed, then they list a 356 TSW gun in the non-inclusive gun list.

Of course, ESP rules also say that the gun must be SA or selective DA/SA only, then goes on to list the Glock series as permitted.

It seems that the rulebook guys have yet another revision to do. By their current rules, you also could not shoot a Star B in any category if it is 9mm Largo.


So, sorry if I misinformed anyone, I got used to the IDPA rulebook when CDP was a sensible division for heavy recoiling autos, rather than a .45 gentleman's club. At that time, I believe you could shoot a .45 in ESP. But the current rulebook is quite silly. I guess the scorers turn away anyone who shows up with a .50 GI, .40 Super or any other single action that they didn't happen to write down (unless it's 356 TSW ).

[Jim Watson]

We all know that the IDPA rulebook is a mess, and caliber assignments not the least of it. That is a shame, because I think it discourages some people from shooting. WWW misinformation and rants like yours probably run more off.

I am settled in my mind over caliber assignments.
A single action .45 ACP shoots in CDP, period.
A single action .40 Super, .356 TSW, or Largo shoots in ESP, period.
But I want to be helpful and our club is small, unaffiliated, and not likely to come to the notice of the Authorities, so if you want to shoot your .50 GI in CDP here, that is ok with me. I'd just like to see one.

I'm done and will not comment further.

[Handy]

Then I'm sorry for de-populating the sport, too.