The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 2, 2019, 02:36 PM   #26
ratshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,276
Quote:
With that said, I can't find anywhere that he's said a "button nose" wadcutter is a good idea for a 52 and for the life of me, I can't figure out why he or anyone would suggest that unless I am totally mistaken on exactly what a button-nose wadcutter is...?!

Here ya go Sevens. Found on another of his pages on the 38WC loads. I knew I had read it. And I am sure the "button nose" he is referring to is the bullet with the slighly extended protrusion on the face of the bullet.

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris...s%20Button.htm

And in case you missed it in the other link I posted.

"With current Alliant Bullseye it takes 3.0-3.2 grs. to reach the same velocity you would expect to get with factory wadcutter loads. But accuracy deteriorates with the Hornady, Speer or Precision-Delta HBWC bullets if you try to load over 2.8 grs. for 720+/- 30 f.p.s.

The former Hercules Bullseye powder took only 2.7-2.8 grains to develop 750 +/- 30 f.p.s. from a 6-inch PPC gun with a flush-seated 148-gr. bullet, but that gets you only about 700-720 f.p.s. with current product which may not be enough to stabilize the bullet in 18-3/4 inch twist S&W's or to reliably function the S&W Model 52 or Colt Gold Cup with the standard factory recoil spring."
__________________
"Those who cannot cleanly dispatch their game using a .30-30 are either shooting too far, hunting inappropriate (too large) game, or are simply incompetent." Mic McPherson

I can understand your anger at me, but what could you possibly have against the horse I rode in on?

Last edited by ratshooter; January 2, 2019 at 02:46 PM.
ratshooter is offline  
Old January 2, 2019, 02:40 PM   #27
ratshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,276
Like this.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Button Nose WC.jpg (6.4 KB, 62 views)
__________________
"Those who cannot cleanly dispatch their game using a .30-30 are either shooting too far, hunting inappropriate (too large) game, or are simply incompetent." Mic McPherson

I can understand your anger at me, but what could you possibly have against the horse I rode in on?
ratshooter is offline  
Old January 2, 2019, 07:43 PM   #28
USSR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2017
Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY
Posts: 684
Quote:
I will see if I have any Speers left.
Thanks Jim, appreciate it.

Don
__________________
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
USSR is offline  
Old January 2, 2019, 08:00 PM   #29
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 15,293
Got maybe 300 Speer HBWC.
They are years, decades old.
Overall lube is still tacky, no oxidation.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old January 2, 2019, 08:35 PM   #30
Carriertxv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2013
Posts: 170
Sent an email still waiting to hear back.
Carriertxv is offline  
Old January 2, 2019, 09:00 PM   #31
USSR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2017
Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY
Posts: 684
Hi Jim,

Only need 30. Plan on shooting 3 ten shot groups of each brand of HBWC for accuracy testing. Will send you a PM to discuss further. Thanks.

Don
__________________
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
USSR is offline  
Old January 2, 2019, 10:17 PM   #32
Eddietruett
Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2017
Posts: 48
I have found that the soft swaged HBWC tend to be a little more accurate at least for me than the cast non hollow base versions. In my experience with 2.7-2.8gr of Bullseye, the Speer, Hornady and Zero are all close with a slight edge going to the Zero Swaged at least for me in my guns. And if you buy the Zeros in bulk the prices is much more attractive than Speer and Hornady. I've not had good results using the plated HBWC from Berrys and I think the plating might keep the base from expanding and sealing the way the softer swaged bullets do.
Eddietruett is offline  
Old January 3, 2019, 08:16 AM   #33
USSR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2017
Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY
Posts: 684
Eddie,

Thanks for reminding me about the Zero HBWC's. Am looking for 30 of them as well for testing purposes.

Don
__________________
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
USSR is offline  
Old January 3, 2019, 01:11 PM   #34
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 10,701
WC's are about making a very clearly defined round hole in target paper. How they do that doesn't really matter much. However, HBWC's are usually pure lead and tend to be swaged and tend to be more accurate. They also tend to be a bit more expensive than cast DEWC's, that are usually not pure lead.
The load used is the same with either type. A 148 grain HBWC uses the same 2.5 to 2.8 of Bullseye(the classic .38 WC target load) as a 148 grain DEWC.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old January 3, 2019, 01:18 PM   #35
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 15,293
Except that you can load DEWC or "bevel base" a good deal hotter to replicate the old "service wadcutter."

Ed Harris says they have reformulated Bullseye and you will likely need 3 grains to make 750 fps.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old January 3, 2019, 03:39 PM   #36
gwpercle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2012
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Posts: 870
After doing a lot of accuracy testing with every different 38 cal. cast bullet I could get my hands on I have discovered that Lyman # 358432 is an accuracy sleeper.
I don't know it's history but stumbled on the mould on Ebay. Mine is the 160 grain version....it was also made in a 148 grain version.
I have about 30 moulds , Lyman , Ideal , Lee , Herters and RCBS , all different designs from 115 grains to 170 grains.
The Lyman 358432 160 grain is the most accurate out of three different S&W's and one Ruger. I wish I knew the history of it. NOE has re created this design and the instant I saw it I ordered a 4 cavity mould. This design is my favorite and if you have never tried it you need to.
I was sure Elmer Keith's 170 grin SWC design was going to win the accuracy award but the 358432 beats it out every time with every powder tried.
This bullet over 2.7 grains of Bullseye is good for 15 shot . one ragged hole groups , 1 1/4 inch across...it's spooky what this bullet and load does !
Gary
gwpercle is offline  
Old January 27, 2019, 06:58 PM   #37
dgludwig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2005
Location: North central Ohio
Posts: 6,936
Almost forty years ago, the late Ken Waters was testing some revolvers for accuracy using hollow-base wadcutters when he reported having the following disconcerting experience after determining some extreme anomalies with the velocities being registered by his Oehler Model 31 chronotach: "...Walking downrange to have a look at the target, I encountered surprise number two. Lying on the floor of my indoor range were the just-fired wadcutter bullets, each with a hole clear through it from end to end. Staring at these in wonderment, I suddenly realized what had happened. The extreme deep hollow bases had allowed the thin center web to shoot out at higher velocity, triggering the chronograph screens, while the main cylindrical portion of the bullet, acting like a sabot, had dropped off.
"Hard on the heels of that thought came the realization that one of these tubular bullets might well have lodged in the barrel after the escape of driving powder gas through its center hole. Hurrying back to the shooting bench with that dread possibility in mind, I picked up the Ruger and checked the breech. And there it was. The fifth (and last) bullet fired had done just that, its hollow base flared out and wedged in the barrel breech, its center shot out!
"What if that had occurred with the first, second, third or fourth shot instead of the last round? Would the next shot blown out the cylinder wall or top strap? I don't know, but in pondering what the consequences might have been, I recalled those reports we've been hearing of late, of quality revolvers blowing up with light target loads with wadcutter bullets.
"There has been the usual nonsensical speculation as to whether the powder detonated in those cases, which didn't make any sense and which I didn't accept. The NRA's recent series of tests disproved that theory. Now I think we know the answer as to what really happened-an unnoticed obstruction in the barrel! No one checks the barrel of a revolver after each shot, yet there's no other way the presence of an obstruction such as this would be known.
"Those bullets were from an old lot produced by a manufacturer who went out of business, but this occurrence should furnish enough incentive to other makers of hollow-base wadcutters to investigate the possibility of it happening with their product. As a double check, I reran the same load tests, this time using solid-base wadcutters, and had no trouble whatsoever, obtaining fine accuracy and normal velocities..."
After reading this account all those many years ago, I have used only solid base wadcutter bullets when reloading for Bullseye competition, whether warranted or not.
__________________
ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED
...Aristotle
NRA Benefactor Life Member
dgludwig is offline  
Old January 27, 2019, 08:54 PM   #38
USSR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2017
Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY
Posts: 684
dgludwig,

Here is the key statement:
Quote:
The extreme deep hollow bases had allowed the thin center web to shoot out at higher velocity
It is common knowledge among Bullseye shooters that HBWC's should be restricted to the 700 -750fps at which they are most accurate. You will not blow a HBWC skirt off at those velocities.

Don
__________________
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
USSR is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 12:58 AM   #39
dgludwig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2005
Location: North central Ohio
Posts: 6,936
USSR, I'm one of those Bullseye shooters you referred to but you are misinterpreting Ken Walter's observations. As mentioned, he was "surprised" to see the much higher than expected velocities being measured by his chronograph and, after the previously described observations, attributed same to the lesser weight bullets with shot-out centers have downrange. He was shooting loads using 148 grain hollow-based wadcutters seated over 2.4 grains of Bullseye powder with a light crimp (a fairly typical Bullseye shooting load with the emphasis being on accuracy). Because he was obtaining the expected and normal velocities of "700 to 750 feet per second" when shooting solid-based wadcutter bullets, the unexplained much higher velocities exhibited by the hollow-based wadcutter bullets were a mystery until he examined the bullets (as reported).

As I related, Mr. Waters said he was surprised by the "extreme anomalies with the velocities being registered" by his chronograph, explaining, "...Imagine my surprise when the always reliable Oehler Model 31 chronotach registered velocities averaging 1,024 feet per second! Reason told me this simply couldn't be, but the readings were consistently between 1,000 and 1,050 feet per second..."
__________________
ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED
...Aristotle
NRA Benefactor Life Member
dgludwig is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 01:12 AM   #40
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 9,793
The CENTERS were traveling at high velocity.
The bullets wouldn't have been laying on the range floor if they were achieving 1000 FPS.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 02:00 AM   #41
dgludwig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2005
Location: North central Ohio
Posts: 6,936
The only real point is/was that I'm trying to make is that the centers from the hollow-based wadcutter bullets that Mr. Waters was testing separated from the core upon shooting them and posed a threat to the well-being of a revolver by potentially lodging same in the barrel. Mr. Waters advised that, though the bullets being shot were no longer being made, the potential problem posed is something that shooters and bullet makers might should be made alerted to. I'm only reporting his findings.
To those who might disagree with him or his opinions, or believe that he was misleading his readers for some nefarious reasons, I would suggest taking it up with him-except that, sadly, he is no longer with us. Personally, I think he was a very knowledgeable and honorable writer and an honest man whom I greatly respected. If he said it happened, I believe it did. To those who want to nitpick at his findings forty years later, well, have at it.
__________________
ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED
...Aristotle
NRA Benefactor Life Member
dgludwig is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 05:08 AM   #42
Nathan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 4,623
Quote:
Doesn't cost me any more to cast a hollow base wadcutter than any other bullet, as in much cheaper than store bought bullets.

Don
Apparently it costs Matt’s bullets something because the hollow base bullets command a $3.50 per 100 premium.
Nathan is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 08:30 AM   #43
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 15,293
I have always heard that hollowbase/hollowpoint bullets were harder to cast, so if you want to make money at it, you have to charge more.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 08:39 AM   #44
David R
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2015
Location: The swamps of WNY
Posts: 533
Bullet caster for many years. A HP or HB are much slower to cast. There is a plug that goes into the mold before casting and removed before dumping the bullet. Much more time. Forget a 6 cavity.

I prefer swaged HBWC because soft lead is all that is needed for 700 fps. I think I stated above, I tried many times to get my 4 cavity H&G #50 Button Nose Wadcutter to shoot as well as a swaged. I can't do it.

I have an OLD H&G # 50 TEN cavity mold. Never used it, its beat and would kill my forearms.

I still shoot solid wadcutters at regular and High velocity. But for Bullseye, can't beat the swaged. Hornady and Speer are available to me.

Enjoy
David
David R is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 09:59 AM   #45
stinkeypete
Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 86
I recall loading some double ended wadcutters in to 357 magnum cases for my Blackhawk Vaqueros.

Not knowing any better, seeing as seating the bullets deep in the case was shaving lead, and being of the opinion that any primer will light off bullseye powder the same no matter the case volume, i was crimping on one of the lube bands, such that the bullet was exposed and cartrige length was about the same as a semi-wad cutter assembly.

The fellas at the 25 yard range saw what I was loading and laughed at my ineptitude at not stuffing the wadcutters all the way down the pipe. Then I showed them my targets.

“You shot that from a rest?” They asked.
“No, that’s one handed.” I used to be pretty handy like that.
Silence. Silence. “Well... you can’t argue with that.” They grouped real tight after finding the right load. I had the right load.

Long story short, so long as it isn’t dangerous one never really knows in this game until you try it yourself.
stinkeypete is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 11:34 AM   #46
DavidAGO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 2008
Location: Magnolia, AR
Posts: 327
Not knowing any better, seeing as seating the bullets deep in the case was shaving lead, and being of the opinion that any primer will light off bullseye powder the same no matter the case volume, i was crimping on one of the lube bands, such that the bullet was exposed and cartrige length was about the same as a semi-wad cutter assembly.

I did the same, casting a Lee 148 gr wadcutter. tumble lubed and would seat them and crimp into the groove. Works great. Looks a bit funny. I have a friend who shoots a model 52, he wanted to try some of mine and of course they did not cycle.

David
DavidAGO is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 12:05 PM   #47
reddog81
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 16, 2014
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
Apparently it costs Matt’s bullets something because the hollow base bullets command a $3.50 per 100 premium.
The bullets have the same material costs, however the hollow point and hollow base bullets take extra time and are more finicky. When doing the hollow base it probably requires someone to watch the machine and make sure its running smoothly and dropping the bullets.
reddog81 is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 02:43 PM   #48
David R
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2015
Location: The swamps of WNY
Posts: 533
NCM_0547.jpg

I spent most of the winter trying to beat this target shot at 50 feet with a HBWC loaded ahead of 2.7 grains Bullseye.

Could not do it.

David
David R is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 03:35 PM   #49
USSR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2017
Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY
Posts: 684
Quote:
He was shooting loads using 148 grain hollow-based wadcutters seated over 2.4 grains of Bullseye powder with a light crimp
Quote:
Imagine my surprise when the always reliable Oehler Model 31 chronotach registered velocities averaging 1,024 feet per second!
dgludwig,

Simply not possible for a 2.4gr load of Bullseye behind a 148gr HBWC to go at over 1,000fps. Heck, it would have trouble making 700fps, since typical load weights for that bullet are 2.7 - 2.8gr of Bullseye. If Mr. Waters was still here, I would tell him that his "always reliable Oehler Model 31 chronotach" was not reliable on that day. While "the bullets being shot were no longer being made" and Mr. Waters is no longer with us, it will have to remain a mystery. However, I would not let this strange occurrence stop me from shooting HBWC's at their intended velocity. Just MHO.

Don
__________________
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
USSR is offline  
Old January 29, 2019, 04:29 PM   #50
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 9,793
Read what I wrote again-
The center of the bullets was blowing out. This is what was reading out on the chrono.
The bullets were traveling at minimal velocity. They were found on the floor of the shooting lane.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09229 seconds with 9 queries