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Old December 25, 2018, 01:39 AM   #26
woodnbow
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If I recall correctly, the fbi load was a 158 gr. Semi wadcutter in both .357 and .38. It would be my preferred load in the short barrels.
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Old December 25, 2018, 06:54 AM   #27
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The usual "FBI load" was a .38 Special +P soft swaged lead hollowpoint. Semiwadcutter shape got it listed as LSWCHP. I don't recall mention of them using Magnums or solid SWC.
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Old December 25, 2018, 07:30 AM   #28
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Here are the results of the testing of my "FBI Load". Bullet in the middle at 840fps, and bullet on the right at 945fps. Both came out of my S&W Model 19 snubbie.

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Old December 25, 2018, 08:39 AM   #29
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Not since I discovered the Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point round that expands like mad out of a short-barreled revolver like my S&W 042.

That's all I carry now.
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Old December 25, 2018, 08:44 AM   #30
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USSR , can you elaborate on this photo ? ( post # 7 with hydra shocks ) I would like more info please.
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Old December 25, 2018, 09:08 AM   #31
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Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain standard pressure is a low recoiling round that is supposed to expand out of a snubby.
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Old December 25, 2018, 09:25 AM   #32
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I carry Speer .38+P 135 GDHP in my Mod.19. But that ammo is not recommended for a S&W Mod.12 and I prefer to not shoot +P in my Mod.14, so looking for a good standard pressure load that’s better than target ammo. Buffalo Bore 158 gr LSWCHP is probably the answer there — “979 fps (336 ft. lbs.) -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch barrel”
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Old December 25, 2018, 09:26 AM   #33
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+1 "Not since I discovered the Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point round that expands like mad out of a short-barreled revolver like my S&W 042. "

I switched over to the Speer short barrel ammo in my 38's and have been happy with the results. I did see the new Federal WC loads in the store yesterday but have not shot any yet.

Now I do run a lead wad cutter in my 32 revolvers, I worked up a load I liked and run it in them with out any problems.
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Old December 25, 2018, 09:38 AM   #34
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USSR , can you elaborate on this photo ? ( post # 7 with hydra shocks ) I would like more info please.
That's the original Hydra-Shok bullet as developed and sold by a couple of guys in my neighborhood (Watkins Glen, NY). The bullets were made by Alberts Corporation out of New Jersey, which has long been out of business. When the 2 local guys sold the rights for the Hydra-Shok to Federal, Federal in their wisdom never produced the bullet as designed, that is as an all lead bullet. Their Hydra-Shoks are all jacketed bullets. I bought about 1500 of the Alberts produced Hydra-Shok bullets from the nephew of one of the original Hydra-Shok guys who passed away. Oh, and they REALLY, REALLY expand at low velocities out of snubbies.

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Old December 25, 2018, 11:15 AM   #35
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Thanks for the historical perspective on hydra-shok development, very interesting.
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Old December 25, 2018, 01:27 PM   #36
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Yes , thank you very much. I’m a huge fan of 38 snubbys and wad cutters. I would love to have some of those in my line up. Wish i had a mould for those. Again thank you for the education. Merry Christmas

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Old December 25, 2018, 03:28 PM   #37
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I have a Question and please excuse my ignorance. I use 158 GR. semi- wad cutters in my model 38 snub nose. The gentlemen I purchase the gun from , gave me the box of them. Said they would be perfect for home defense. Curious for more input. Thank you Semper Fi 97-01

Charlie
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Old December 25, 2018, 03:57 PM   #38
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I use 158 GR. semi- wad cutters in my model 38 snub nose. The gentlemen I purchase the gun from , gave me the box of them. Said they would be perfect for home defense.
The 158gn swc WAS the gold standard years ago. The JHP’s of the day would not expand at the velocities generated by snubbie barrels. So, we chose the sharper profile of the SWC and the weight increase over the JHP’s of the day.

Today, there are a number of bullets designed to expand and perform from short barrels. These “modern” offerings perform better then the 158SWC ever did.

Semper Fi back at ya...86-92.
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Old December 25, 2018, 04:20 PM   #39
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FYI to all, I found this:

http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...ive-ammunition
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Old December 25, 2018, 06:05 PM   #40
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Thanks , Glen E Meyer .. Great info !!!
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Old December 25, 2018, 10:34 PM   #41
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I have a 4" barrel on my 357, I don't carry this gun often but I do have some 158gr jacketed soft point stuck in it. After reading everything you guys said I do think I will find some wad cutters and see what they do out of my gun. Thanks
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Old December 26, 2018, 10:40 AM   #42
Jim Watson
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Quote:
I have a Question and please excuse my ignorance. I use 158 GR. semi- wad cutters in my model 38 snub nose. The gentlemen I purchase the gun from , gave me the box of them. Said they would be perfect for home defense. Curious for more input. Thank you
NYPD found the semiwadcutter little if any better than roundnose.
You can get jacketed hollowpoints like Gold Dot Short Barrel that will expand, or naked lead hollowpoints.

Quote:
I have a 4" barrel on my 357, I don't carry this gun often but I do have some 158gr jacketed soft point stuck in it. After reading everything you guys said I do think I will find some wad cutters and see what they do out of my gun.
Revolver softpoints seldom expand. I think going all the way down to wadcutters is overreacting. Some nice magnum or special +p hollowpoints would be my choice.
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Old December 26, 2018, 05:49 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
No. I have seen several people shot with target wadcutters when I was a big city cop. No.
Not just one, but a double 'no', yet you provided no details.
Can you provide the links to the news reports of incidents that would result in such an opinion?

I would love to see the details, especially considering the 148gr WC has had such an excellent reputation over many many decades. Especially such details that would prove a different bullet type would have prompted a double 'yes'.
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Old December 26, 2018, 05:57 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
The problem with the factory Mid Range Target Wadcutter is that while it is comfortable to shoot, it just isn't very powerful. That is why it is easy to shoot. The "clean hole" and "flat nose" can only do so much when not driven very fast.

There used to be a Service Wadcutter about 100 fps faster, same as roundnose. That would be a lot better, if it were still available. Yes, Buffalo Bore sells an overloaded wadcutter that will hit hard, but it is too fast, becoming as harsh to shoot as any of the hollowpoints on the market.

Me?
My Bodyguard is at present loaded with Speer Short Barrel Gold Dots. But I will look hard at the Federal Micro when I buy more carry ammo for that gun.
It may not be very 'powerful' but it drives deep and does in fact punch nice holes in giblets.

Does it expand...? Nope
But anyone who consistently hunts with non-rifle calibers can tell you that expansion has little to no practical effect. Sure jello 'tests' sell lots of $2.00 per round ammunition in pretty packages, but in reality expansion doesn't do what most folks think it does.

Placement trumps all else, followed by penetration.
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Old December 26, 2018, 06:20 PM   #45
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Placement trumps all else, followed by penetration.
Put them in either order, you need both for maximum effectiveness. And, of the two, I put penetration ahead of placement, but only because penetration does some damage, even if its not in the needed spot. Placement in the right spot doesn't get you much if the bullet doesn't penetrate enough.

One is King, and the other, Queen, you decide which is which, but you need them both together, to rule.
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Old December 26, 2018, 06:29 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
The standard factory load .38 wadcutter is target ammo. The slugs are swaged lead, which is rather soft, and velocities are advertised as mid 800s from 6" barrels.

They are accurate, pleasant to shoot, low recoil loads. They are not, despite the full bore diameter flat point, considered to be good manstoppers at target load velocities.

The regular swaged wadcutters are not well suited to higher velocities, either.

The are neither big and heavy nor light and fast. Simply put, they are the worst of both worlds for defense against human attackers.

Dandy for small critters though, with proper shot placement.
Not considered to be good 'man stoppers'?
Care to share your data sets on that?
Especially considering their reputation as being excellent 'man stoppers' over many decades.

Aside from essentially perfect deep penetration, they offer the shooter the ability to deliver fast accurate follow-up shots. A wonderful example being the Sam Brown shooting where the officer made four double action shots under 1.5 sec, and delivered four upper torso hits from about 20ft. One of those 148gr wadcutters passed through Browns humerus yet still punched his heart, another passed through his shoulder blade and punched the opposite lung.

As for 'proper shot placement', what service caliber makes up for an improperly placed shot?
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Old December 26, 2018, 06:32 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
Put them in either order, you need both for maximum effectiveness. And, of the two, I put penetration ahead of placement, but only because penetration does some damage, even if its not in the needed spot. Placement in the right spot doesn't get you much if the bullet doesn't penetrate enough.

One is King, and the other, Queen, you decide which is which, but you need them both together, to rule.
Yet the majority of modern 38 Special loads penetrate LESS than the standard wadcutter.
This includes many +P and +p+ loads (with their much more significant recoils & blast).

This brings up the fact that most who decry the load as 'not being powerful' assume the round doesn't penetrate, this just shows a lack of real world experience.
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Old December 26, 2018, 06:52 PM   #48
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There used to be a Service Wadcutter about 100 fps faster, same as roundnose. That would be a lot better, if it were still available. Yes, Buffalo Bore sells an overloaded wadcutter that will hit hard, but it is too fast, becoming as harsh to shoot as any of the hollowpoints on the market.
It's very easy to load those yourself. Can't figure out how to post a screen shot of an Alliant load book, so go here and look at page 16: http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/re...57-alliant2001 W-231 would be a good powder for this too, but I don't have load data for it.
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Old December 27, 2018, 02:04 PM   #49
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Not considered to be good 'man stoppers'?
Care to share your data sets on that?
I would, if I had any, but data proving a negative is notoriously difficult to find, and its not something I was ever interested in collecting. Sorry.

I do, however, wonder why, if the standard .38 Special Target Wadcutter ammo is the "bees knees" for stopping power, why has no police agency ever issued it for service use? Has everyone been wrong for the past century??

I don't mean to imply that it can't work, or won't work, just that if it worked as well, or better than other things, then I think it would have been used by someone, somewhere so there would be a body of proof, not just a few individual shootings. If such exists, I am unaware of it.

The wadcutter concept works well, semi wadcutters work well, very well when bullet alloy and velocity are properly matched to the intended task.

.38 Special Target Wadcutters are soft, and slow which is great for some things, and not so much for others.

There are no magic bullets, and you can find examples where the most unlikely things have worked and the most highly touted things have failed.
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Old December 27, 2018, 06:11 PM   #50
TBM900
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I would, if I had any, but data proving a negative is notoriously difficult to find, and its not something I was ever interested in collecting. Sorry.
Nothing to do with "proving a negative", rather it's about supporting your own assertion.
One would reasonably assume that someone making such a bold statement would have some sort of factual basis with which to form such.

Quote:
I do, however, wonder why, if the standard .38 Special Target Wadcutter ammo is the "bees knees" for stopping power
The term 'stopping power' is not one I used.
Further, the term itself is gibberish and I simply do not understand how people can rationally use it.

Quote:
why has no police agency ever issued it for service use?
Do you have a source for this assertion?

Quote:
Has everyone been wrong for the past century??
You do know that for the majority of the 20th century, when revolvers saw their most prodigious use in law enforcement, the majority of LEOs supplied their own weapons and ammunition.....don't you?

Quote:
I don't mean to imply that it can't work, or won't work, just that if it worked as well, or better than other things, then I think it would have been used by someone, somewhere so there would be a body of proof
As compared to the body of proof you used to state they are 'not considered good man stoppers'?
Just say'n....

Quote:
The wadcutter concept works well, semi wadcutters work well, very well when bullet alloy and velocity are properly matched to the intended task.
Ok, I'm all ears, show me the metrics, the considerations, the data, and the body of proof to from this 'positive' assertion, that would then negate the 'negative'. I've got my bucket-o-popcorn, a big-gulp, and comfy chair.....

Quote:
.38 Special Target Wadcutters are soft, and slow which is great for some things, and not so much for others.
I find it interesting that you keep referring to alloy/softness and inferred that is a negative trait. Yet in the real world they generally tend to not deform to any significant degree (or even at all). Most of the slugs I've recovered over the last four decades could have been reloaded with little effort, the few that did, struck bone and usually deformed less than modern wonder bullets. And yet they all worked beautifully as intended, something I can't say for many modern wonder bullets.

I guess that's just how things go when one basis their comments on real world experience versus......well.....frankly, I'm not sure what.

Quote:
There are no magic bullets
At no point did I state or imply there were.
Yet you are wholly denouncing one apparently based on no hard data or first hand experience.

I do find this fascinating, especially considering the topic of 38 Special out of a short barrel. The majority of modern $2.00 per round 'wonder bullets' actually fail or under perform in the categories that so many believe important, often at the expense of higher blast/recoil.

Do you ever get out to the SouthWest? If so you've got an open invitation to our ranch and come on a handgun hunt with the lowly 38 wadcutter. We can do a little video and maybe even a side by side comparison with your perceived 'better' short-barrel 38 Special load.


Last edited by TBM900; December 27, 2018 at 06:31 PM.
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