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Old December 27, 2018, 08:24 PM   #51
amd6547
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When I was in high school, pre-1974, the front lawn was a daily mini-Woodstock. One day, there was a big fight there, and the police were called to restore order.
There was some grappling with the cops involved, before they took control.
At the site of the wrasslin, I found six nickel cased Remington 148gn wadcutter 38’s that fell out of a cops dump pouch.

I like the 38spl a lot. I sometimes carry a 4” Model 10 or 15, and have been known to slip a Model 38 in my pocket.
I like the Remington 158gn LWSCHP +P or the short barrel Gold Dot 135gn.
I’d be fine with hot loaded hard cast 148gn WC’s, but at that point, might as well use 158gn SWC’s. Easier to use with speedloaders.
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Old December 27, 2018, 08:41 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by amd6547 View Post
When I was in high school, pre-1974, the front lawn was a daily mini-Woodstock. One day, there was a big fight there, and the police were called to restore order.
There was some grappling with the cops involved, before they took control.
At the site of the wrasslin, I found six nickel cased Remington 148gn wadcutter 38’s that fell out of a cops dump pouch.

I like the 38spl a lot. I sometimes carry a 4” Model 10 or 15, and have been known to slip a Model 38 in my pocket.
I like the Remington 158gn LWSCHP +P or the short barrel Gold Dot 135gn.
I’d be fine with hot loaded hard cast 148gn WC’s, but at that point, might as well use 158gn SWC’s. Easier to use with speedloaders.
Dump pouches, second six, matich quick load.....ahhh those were the days

As for reloads, I always use a round profile bullet in my SL variants to aid in the process.
I would never use a full or even semi-wadcutter as backup, too much risk for fumbling.
Of course the odds of needing to reload in a self defense situation is slim at best.
Now werwolf attack is another matter......
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Old December 27, 2018, 09:32 PM   #53
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swagged HP bullets

ussr, were the bullets you showed the old "Alberts/Taurus Bullets" swagged HP bullets from many years ago?
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Old December 28, 2018, 07:37 AM   #54
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Not just one, but a double 'no', yet you provided no details.
Can you provide the links to the news reports of incidents that would result in such an opinion?

I would love to see the details, especially considering the 148gr WC has had such an excellent reputation over many many decades. Especially such details that would prove a different bullet type would have prompted a double 'yes'.
I was a big city cop in Texas before the internet. There are no "links" I worked some very rough places and saw many people shot with various things. That is how I came to my opinions. As I got older and talked with other cops from other areas during the revolver era with similar experience they have the same opinions I do.

Where did you see it had an "excellent" rep? NYPD? They suck. I met and spoke with Jim Cirillo when he taught at FLETC. They had a choice at one time..... LRN or wadcutter......

A 380 ACP with anything is a better choice that a 38 Special standard velocity anything from a snubby. A snubby really neuters an already anemic round. When the 38 Special was found to be acceptable was when fired from 5" and 6" BBL's. In the mid-late 1960's when cops switched to 4" BBL's you saw a drastic drop in effectiveness.

The reason many cops carried such crappy ammo was a series of issues. Some departments would not allow magnums. Some departments would not allow hollow points. The NYPD and CHP come to mind. The CHP issued 357 mag revolvers but very few of their cops were ever authorized magnums.

I was fortunate, the PD (Ft Worth, TX) I worked for allowed any commercially made HP's in 357 magnum or 38 special, I carried maggies in my 6" L frame and before that my 4" model 66.

During the 1980's the DFW area was extremely tumultuous. I went from there to El Paso, TX with the USBP.
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Old December 28, 2018, 07:51 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
I was a big city cop in Texas before the internet. There are no "links" I worked some very rough places and saw many people shot with various things. That is how I came to my opinions. As I got older and talked with other cops from other areas during the revolver era with similar experience they have the same opinions I do.

Where did you see it had an "excellent" rep? NYPD? They suck. I met and spoke with Jim Cirillo when he taught at FLETC. They had a choice at one time..... LRN or wadcutter......

A 380 ACP with anything is a better choice that a 38 Special standard velocity anything from a snubby. A snubby really neuters an already anemic round. When the 38 Special was found to be acceptable was when fired from 5" and 6" BBL's. In the mid-late 1960's when cops switched to 4" BBL's you saw a drastic drop in effectiveness.

The reason many cops carried such crappy ammo was a series of issues. Some departments would not allow magnums. Some departments would not allow hollow points. The NYPD and CHP come to mind. The CHP issued 357 mag revolvers but very few of their cops were ever authorized magnums.

I was fortunate, the PD (Ft Worth, TX) I worked for allowed any commercially made HP's in 357 magnum or 38 special, I carried maggies in my 6" L frame and before that my 4" model 66.

During the 1980's the DFW area was extremely tumultuous. I went from there to El Paso, TX with the USBP.
Interesting.....
All that yet I still do not see any actual details/specifics, just platitudes and vague anecdotes.

Last edited by TBM900; December 28, 2018 at 07:58 AM.
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Old December 28, 2018, 07:52 AM   #56
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A wonderful example being the Sam Brown shooting where the officer made four double action shots under 1.5 sec, and delivered four upper torso hits from about 20ft. One of those 148gr wadcutters passed through Browns humerus yet still punched his heart, another passed through his shoulder blade and punched the opposite lung.
What leads you to believe that San Diego PD used 38 wadcutters?

The shootings I saw on people with wadcutters exhibited very shallow penetration when encountering bones.
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Old December 28, 2018, 08:12 AM   #57
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Interesting.....
All that yet I still do not see any actual details/specifics, just platitudes and vague anecdotes.
Well then..... Carry what you want.
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Old December 28, 2018, 09:55 AM   #58
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ussr, were the bullets you showed the old "Alberts/Taurus Bullets" swagged HP bullets from many years ago?
Yes, those are the one. Probably date back to the late 70's or early 80's. Don't remember when Hydra-Shok sold their patent to Federal. Here's a 40 year old ad from the old Hydra-Shok Corporation.

Don

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Old December 30, 2018, 02:40 PM   #59
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It really gets tiresome reading all of the dogmatic statements about these things.

No, I don't use them but I would if I had to. I would rather use them than a lot of other things that can be had.

To start with, every bit of the human body is unique and a shot three inches to the left or right will have a different effect than any other. Much of the time, changing the location of the hit can change how well the bullet will work.

there are two goals in a shooting. Deep wounds and wide wounds. both are good. Deep and narrow is better than shallow and wide. IMO.


You can work with tiny, needle pointed FMJ 9mm loads and get what may be the worst combat performance possible for a true combat round. It will zip through at a caliber sized opening and do little more damage than a big screwdriver. Using a much heavier lrn bullet in .38 special will obviously have lower velocity, but it may deform and mushroom, it may go deeper because of the mass. Maybe. Remember that three inch to one side rule?

To switch to a semi wadcutter lead will cause more damage as it passes through, but not much. It will still give deep penetration in a narrow hole. to switch to a standard hollow point of primitive design will be very little improvement, many of the rounds based on eighties and before technology aren't good at expanding under anything but ideal conditions.

The target wad cutter is the slowest round, a lighter round, and a round almost certain to punch through leaving a relatively deep narrow wound.

That thing has no positives. Low velocity, low weight, no expansion possible. You could improve it immensely by just using a semi wadcutter 158 grain round with a few more fps and 10 grains of extra weight.

I would carry the wadcutters If I had to and wouldn't be afraid of dying, the bullet isn't what decides survival.

I would choose a modern hollow point such as gold dot.IF I found normal ammo intolerable, I would choose a lower velocity keith hollow point and go to lead wadcutter as the last choice. Then I'd shoot for the center of the chest and let the chips fall.
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Old January 3, 2019, 02:35 AM   #60
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S&W M36

I keep a Chief as a second gun when we travel, pretty much so bamawife can be armed if I leave the vehicle for any reason. The simple nature of the DA revolver and the light weight and size of the gun suit her. Shooting is not her thing,.... but she can shoot. But bamawife is very petite, and only ammo she can tolerate in the Chief is .38 WC, so that is what is on board.
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Old February 1, 2019, 07:23 AM   #61
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Well hollowpoint wadcutters are probably the way to go if your going to use 38spl wc for a SD/HD " role".
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