Double barrel project gun

[Georgian]

Hey yall. I've always wanted a short double barrel, maybe 11-12'' (several inches in front of the hand-guard) with a full length butt stock. I have been perusing gunbroker to obtain a project double, but wanted advice from folks that have already been through the NFA process. Based on the research I have done, if I wanted to manufacture a previously purchased, legal length shotgun into an NFA SBS, I would first process the necessary paperwork, pay the $200 tax, and await the receipt of that tax stamp before cutting down said shotgun.

I do not know if I am comfortable cutting down the barrels myself, which would leave me with the option of having a gunsmith perform the work. If I went that route, what would that involve? I assume the gunsmith would have to also be a Class 3 dealer, but I do not know.

All I am wanting done is the barrel cut down, the center void between the barrels filled (JB weld?), and cold blued. Maybe that wouldn't be too much to tackle myself after the necessary paperwork and stamp approval. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Bill DeShivs]

You are correct on the process.
If you take the barrels only to the gunsmith, there is no problem with him cutting them down. Don't take the action.
Anyone can cut the barrels-as long as they aren't on the gun.

[James K]

The key here is who "makes" the SBS, and thus needs the license. If the gunsmith cuts down the barrels, HE has to have a manufacturer's license. You do not; you have to pay for the tax stamp to allow him to transfer the gun to you after the work is done. So, if you have a gunsmith with a manufacturers license make the SBS, you don't need a license, only the tax stamp to allow you to take possession of it.

But the tax stamp allows you to either take possession of an NFA firearm, or to manufacture an NFA firearm.

So, alternatively, you can obtain the tax stamp, and then cut down the original shotgun; you are the manufacturer. You then can have any gunsmith finish up the job; he does not need any manufacturer's license to do that. (IIRC, though, you must accompany the SBS while he does the work and take it home when the store/shop is closed. It cannot be left at his shop while the work is in progress, like an ordinary shotgun could.)

Jim

[James K]

Bill, you may be correct, but I can't find anything "official" that says that. If you have a cite I would appreciate it. (No, common sense is not enough - we are dealing with the federal government.)

So, basically, can any gunsmith (or anyone else) cut down a rifle/shotgun barrel below the 16"/18" limit without either having a tax stamp or a license, whether the barrel(s) are attached to a receiver or not?

Jim

[dogtown tom]

James K The key here is who "makes" the SBS, and thus needs the license. If the gunsmith cuts down the barrels, HE has to have a manufacturer's license.

Not true. (Bill nailed it.)
If the OP takes in just the barrel to a gunsmith to have it shortened the gunsmith isn't "making" anything.

When the OP then picks up the shortened barrel and assembles it to his receiver he "makes" the NFA firearm.

Guys send off AR barrels all the time to have them shortened or shortened & threaded. Or they simply buy a short bbl upper when their stamp arrives.

If you take the entire firearm to a gunsmith to have the bbls shortened. then yes, the gunsmith is the "maker".

[James K]

I am sure it will come as no surprise, but they seem to have made some changes in the rules, or in their interpretation of the rules, since I got that answer many years ago.

Jim

[Bill DeShivs]

Barrels are not a firearm.
The frame is the firearm.

[Georgian]

So, I could take the barrel assembly to a gunsmith have him cut it down and do the finishing work. It is not a NFA SBS item until it is assembled?

[Bill DeShivs]

Correct. You are the assembler.

[SGW Gunsmith]

Actually.............the part with the "serial number" is considered to be the firearm. By the BATF-E, that is, not some wannabe lawyer.

[T. O'Heir]

"...dealing with the federal government..." Makes no difference who's Federal government either. Ya'll get to comply with State law as well though.
We can have a short barrel on a shotgun(like 11 or 12"ers) if the barrel came like that out of the factory. No cutting one to below 18", by anybody though.
"...having a gunsmith perform the work...." Legalities aside, I'd suggest you do that anyway. Barrels on doubles aren't always joined over the whole length and the rib, if there is one, may not be metal(never mind steel). After talking to the smithy/AFT about the laws.
ATF's FAQ's say individuals cannot register an unregistered NFA firearm anyway.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-...ional-firearms
Also says the guy manufacturing SBS' must be licensed under the GCA and pay the required special (occupational) tax.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/how-...l-nfa-firearms

[dogtown tom]

SGW Gunsmith Actually.............the part with the "serial number" is considered to be the firearm. By the BATF-E, that is, not some wannabe lawyer.

Not exactly.
Many firearms have their serial number in several places on the firearm....Glocks have it on barrel, slide and frame as do many FN/Browning Hi Powers.

More accurately the frame or receiver MUST have a serial number.

§ 478.92 How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?

(a)

(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

(i) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and

(ii) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

(A) The model, if such designation has been made;

(B) The caliber or gauge;

(C) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer;

(D) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business; and

(E) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.

(2) Firearm frames or receivers. A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.

(3) Special markings for semiautomatic assault weapons, effective July 5, 1995. In the case of any semiautomatic assault weapon manufactured after September 13, 1994, you must mark the frame or receiver “RESTRICTED LAW ENFORCEMENT/GOVERNMENT USE ONLY” or, in the case of weapons manufactured for export, “FOR EXPORT ONLY,” in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. For weapons manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the special markings prescribed in this paragraph (a)(3) must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.

(4) Exceptions.

(i) Alternate means of identification. The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.

(ii) Destructive devices. In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or impracticable.

(iii) Machine guns, silencers, and parts. Any part defined as a machine gun, firearm muffler, or firearm silencer in § 478.11, that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you, must be identified as required by this section. The Director may authorize other means of identification of parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.

(5) Measurement of height and depth of markings. The depth of all markings required by this section will be measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1)(i) of this section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases). ..............

[dogtown tom]

T. O'Heir ATF's FAQ's say individuals cannot register an unregistered NFA firearm anyway.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-...ional-firearms

No, it doesn't say that at all.
Note the term "not previously registered". A maker of an NFA firearm applies for his tax stamp BEFORE making the firearm.

May a private citizen register a firearm not previously registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record?
No. The NFA permits only manufacturers, makers, importers, and certain governmental entities to register firearms.

[26 U.S.C. 5841(b) and 5861(d); 27 CFR 479.101(b) and 479.104]

Also says the guy manufacturing SBS' must be licensed under the GCA and pay the required special (occupational) tax.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/how-...l-nfa-firearms

Which has absolutely nothing to do with someone "making" an NFA firearm via a Form 1.

You are confusing "maker" vs "manufacturer". Anyone can be a maker, just submit the Form 1.

Only licensees can pay the Special Occupational Tax to allow them to deal or manufacture NFA firearms.

How does a person qualify to import, manufacture, or deal in NFA firearms? The person must be licensed under the GCA and pay the required special (occupational) tax imposed by the NFA. After becoming licensed under the GCA, the licensee must file an ATF Form 5630.7, Special Tax Registration and Return National Firearms Act (NFA) with the appropriate tax payment with ATF. In addition, an importer (except importers of sporting shotguns and shotgun ammunition) must also be registered with ATF under the Arms Export Control Act of 1976, by filing an ATF Form 4587, Application to Register as an Importer of U.S. Munitions Import List Articles.

[26 U.S.C. 5801; 18 U.S.C. 923; 27 CFR 447.31, 478.41 and 479.34]

[Bill DeShivs]

And here we have someone in Canada who doesn't understand the US laws giving advice.

And we have a "gunsmith" who doesn't understand what "frame or receiver" means.

The "attack dogs" are out today- but they have no teeth.

The frame or receiver is the "firearm."

You can cut all the shotgun barrels you want, as short as you want-as long as you don't have the frame they go on. Barrels are unregulated.

[849ACSO]

You can cut all the shotgun barrels you want, as short as you want-as long as you don't have the frame they go on. Barrels are unregulated

As an LEO that has worked on ATF Task Forces, I can say that this is correct. We used to find gun parts (barrels, etc.) during investigations. Without the rest of the gun, they might as well be an oversized drinking straw. Once you put it on, or possess a receiver, different matter.

And if you apply for and receive the stamp, and take the barrels to a smith without the receiver, and you put the barrels back on after the cutting, you are the "maker". No issues.