.220 Swift and Hornady New Dimension Dies

ArmySon · August 5, 2001, 08:51 PM

Does anybody else have problems with Hornady's New Dimension sizing/decapping die? I've been using Norma .220 brass but recently bought 100 Winchester cases. Winchester's brass is a bit harder than the Norma so it springs back a bit more. Well, after running a couple cases through their 'Elliptical Expander', I measured the inside of the necks and thought it was a bit undersized.

I proceeded to load a couple of 50 grain VMax's and had a heck of a time seating the bullet. Upon inspecting the seated round, I saw shavings around the base of the bullet.

I measured their expander and it mic'd at .223. The Winchester cases are springing back too much and is causing the tight seating.

I turned a new expander on the lathe but made it a bit too long so the decapping pin won't work. Instead of making another one, I'm going to call Hornady tomorrow. I'm just wondering if they have an expander that's .224 in diameter. When I made the new expander at that diameter, it took care of the problem.

Has anybody dealt with their customer service? I never had to call them before about a problem with their product.

**Mal H** · August 5, 2001, 09:16 PM

Strictly in the "for what it's worth" category, I just mic'ed two RCBS expanders (.223 Rem and 22-250) and they are both .222 and I don't have any problems seating .224's. Even though they aren't for the .220 Swift, it think they are the same expander used for that round by RCBS.

I have some Hornady ND die sets but none for rifles, so the expander type is different. No personal info on their customer service, but have heard nothing but good reports on them.

I am wondering about the temper of the Win brass. If it was new, did it have a very slight pinkish tint at the mouth?

ArmySon · August 5, 2001, 09:31 PM

No, the mouths were all uniformed in color. Mal, the difference with .220 Swift is the thickness of the case. Saami spec - .18

With the necks being that thick, compounded by the hardness of the Winchester brass, a .223 expander just doesn't give enough umpf when expanding.

**Mal H** · August 5, 2001, 09:53 PM

Another thought on the problem. Are you chamfering the case mouths a little? When I started doing that about 25 years ago, the copper shaving stopped.

ArmySon · August 5, 2001, 09:57 PM

Yes, the cases are chamfered. They were done on a lathe even!

swifter... · August 5, 2001, 10:35 PM

If 'twas me, I'd try annealing the cases. Never had this happen with my Swift AI, but I routinely anneal all of them before fireforming. I was disappointed with Hornady dies in my 6mm, went to Redding when I imped it.
Tom

**Mal H** · August 5, 2001, 10:46 PM

Sorry to keep beating that old horse, Son, but you know how I love a mystery.

Back to the RCBS example, you can see here that their expander ball is the same for the Swift as it is for the 22-250 and other .224 rounds. (The same is true for their carbide expander balls.) So if you happened to be using RCBS dies instead of Hornady, your problem would be even worse.

I still question the temper of the case mouths. Every Winchester case I've bought new was slightly pinkish at the mouth, meaning it had been tempered properly. It should not spring back so much that you can't seat a bullet without shaving some copper.

Be sure to let us know what the Hornady rep says.

ArmySon · August 5, 2001, 11:07 PM

Misread your question Mal. Yes, the cases are tempered. The pinkish color is very uniformed around the mouth.

We tried the same die on some of my Norma brass and it had the same problem. It was not NEARLY as bad but the friction was still very noticeable. I'm curioius what Hornady will have to say.

If they do not offer a .224 expander, I'm just going to order a bushing from Redding and convert my Hornady die

ArmySon · August 6, 2001, 09:56 AM

Called Hornady and the rep stated that the problem is due to Winchester being a bit stiffer than everybody else's brass. A larger diameter expander ball would help with new Winchester brass but eventually would cause problems with other manufacturer's brass. Meaning, after a few shots and loads, the cases won't spring back and seating would become a problem due to the case mouth being oversized.

He recommended annealing the necks. I'll try that later today but it irks me because since the cases are new, they should be at a relatively soft state. I think I'll stick to Norma brass after I shoot these lot of 500 cases up

**Mal H** · August 6, 2001, 05:33 PM

Bummer. Maybe you can fire about 20 and reload them to see if the case has softened up some. Annealing 500 would be a chore.

But whatever you do, you should do it quickly because those virgin Winchester cases seem to multiply like rabbits when you leave them all together at night. Yours quintupled overnight!

ArmySon · August 6, 2001, 05:39 PM

That's for sure! It was an exaggeration to state the chore of annealing that many cases!

MADISON · August 6, 2001, 10:57 PM

Phone Hornady!!!
I was having trouble with 223 cases sticking. I sent the Hornady New Homention Does back. They polished them and returned them to me.

Upon their return I saw that their die wrench would not fit the de-capper. I phoned them and they are nice enough to send me one. Also, I have a neck sizing 224 die that the pin is TOO LARGE.

Wild Romanian · August 7, 2001, 07:19 AM

I have had good luck with the Hornady people especially their tech dept. I have a 220 swift with Hornady new dimension dies and I do not like them. I much prefer RCBS, they are a lot easier to set up and use. I have had no problem with the new demension dies.

I generally use Winchester cases and I get about 10 reloads for each case with very little and sometimes no trimming. How is this possible. I use a mild load of 37.5 grains of 4064 for a velocity of 3,700 fps. This is a low pressure loading and the all time classic accuracy load for the swift. Barrel life is also long too with this load.

If you have a heavy barrel and a 2 ounce trigger and a properly bedded barrel you should average groups below 1/2 inch for 5 shots at 100 yards with this load. Your scope should be of at least 20 power for accurate paper punching. Remember your trigger pull is half your accuracy. Any trigger pull over 2 ounces and you are just defeating your purpose in regards to consistant accuracy.

Remember if you hot rod the Swift expect little more than a 1,000 rounds of barrel life and expect to trim cases every time you shoot them. Expect necks to thicken too. Maybe this is why you are having trouble seating your bullets? Just a thought. W.R.

**Mal H** · August 7, 2001, 09:34 AM

Son - please allow me.

Wild Romanian:

Quote:

I have a 220 swift with Hornady new dimension dies and I do not like them. ... I have had no problem with the new demension dies.

Quote:

Expect necks to thicken too. Maybe this is why you are having trouble seating your bullets? Just a thought.

He is using new cases as mentioned in the first and ninth posts.

Wild Romanian · August 7, 2001, 02:53 PM

Hey mal you didn't post why I did not like them . There is a reason if you had bothered to read the rest of my post and not quote me out of context. w.r.

Wild Romanian · August 7, 2001, 02:57 PM

The reason I had bought the new dimension dies was that I was curious to see if the sliding seating collar had any advantage in accuracy over the traditional seating type dies. It did not. And it was certainly more of a pain in the but to use than the traditional dies.

I do not like Lee dies either but I own them and find that they work just as well as the more expensive dies but their is a matter of pride of ownership and appreciation of good workmanship in the tools that you use. I have never liked the o rings that soon wear out in Lee dies but you cannot beat them for the money. I will still take RCBS any day. Just my personal preference.

**Mal H** · August 7, 2001, 03:08 PM

Actually WR, I did "bother" to read your entire post - twice.

When you say you don't like the ND dies and then say you have had no problem with them, you'll have to agree that that is confusing. If you find them more difficult to setup and use than the RCBS, then isn't that a problem with them? BTW, I agree with you on the RCBS vs. ND die sets.

Wild Romanian · August 7, 2001, 03:14 PM

I would also suggest you try another set of dies , if available from one of your friends and see if you have the same problem. You could also use a bit of powdered graphite or moly and see if this makes a difference. Mike bullets diameter and case mouth diameter and chamfer the hell out of the case. After once firing the case see if you still have the same problem with seating. You could also compare differnent lots of Winchester brass. Look on the inside of the case mouth to determine if there is any roughness on the I.D. of the brass necks. If brass is way to thick you could inside neck ream them.

By experimenting with all variables you will sooner or later discover the problem. Is not reloading fun. It is enough to drive even the most experienced of us nuts from time to time. After 35 years of reloading I always seem to find a new gremlin to anilate on every reloading adventure. Good luck. W.R.

Wild Romanian · August 7, 2001, 03:35 PM

For those of you who shoot a .220 swift with a factory barrel (not custom): If you experience foul out and groups opening up after about 20 rounds I suggest cleaning all the copper out and then using moly coated bullets. I have seen more than one factory barreled .220 swift hold its accuracy as long as 80 rounds without fouling out when switching to the moly coated bullets.

By the way the moly is easily cleaned out and does not rust your barrel. Uban legends about moly spring up faster than I can crush them.

Use a good grade of fine moly available from a bearing house like Applied industrial Tehnology (The old Bearings Inc. Co.) A small bottle will last you for years. Throw your bullets and some steel shot into a vibrator and in about 30 minutes they are done. Some of my friends are also using Hornady case lube on the molly bullets to keep from getting the moly all over their hands. The lube i am told dries on the moly coated bullets and keeps things much cleaner. I plan on getting some of this spray lube soon. W.R.

ArmySon · August 7, 2001, 05:33 PM

WR

What do you think of the Hornady moly coated bullets? I've been shooting a lot of those through my rifle.

Wild Romanian · August 8, 2001, 07:14 AM

Actually I have never used them. I find it much cheaper to moly coat my own because I shoot about 3,000 rounds a year in practice and in matches with my AR15. I have so far shot 8,500 rounds through this gun and it is still shooting 3/8 of an inch with .52 grain, 53 grain and 69 grain Sierra match bullets. I think this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that moly coated bullets sure do not hurt accuracy any. Clean up is a lot quicker also. Their is very little if any copper ever left in my barrel.

Just as a note: I never went through the crazy process of breaking in the barrel. I simply shot it and then took it home and properly cleaned it. The gun barrel is stainless and it was never sent in and frozen. It shot 3/8 inch brand new right out of the box with no break in whatsoever. After seeing me shoot these groups at our range several shooters that had expensive $2,000 dollar custom AR's on order promply canceled their orders and went out and bought this Colt factory gun and they told me that they too achieved the same level of accuracy from their new Colts.

Every once in a great while I actually do something right. I plan on buying another one of these Colts this winter. It will eventually replace the Colt I am shooting now. I am really wondering how many more rounds I can get at this level of accuracy. I guess time will eventually tell me.

I did install a Jewell trigger, an adjustable butt plate and when shooting for accuracy I mount a B&L 6x24 variable scope. I cannot recommend the Jewell highly enough. The trigger enabled me to up my average score considerably. I only wish I would have bought and installed it sooner than I did. It was worth every penny of the price I paid for it. W.R.

August 5, 2001, 08:51 PM	#1
ArmySon Staff Alumnus Join Date: April 14, 2000 Posts: 2,926	.220 Swift and Hornady New Dimension Dies Does anybody else have problems with Hornady's New Dimension sizing/decapping die? I've been using Norma .220 brass but recently bought 100 Winchester cases. Winchester's brass is a bit harder than the Norma so it springs back a bit more. Well, after running a couple cases through their 'Elliptical Expander', I measured the inside of the necks and thought it was a bit undersized. I proceeded to load a couple of 50 grain VMax's and had a heck of a time seating the bullet. Upon inspecting the seated round, I saw shavings around the base of the bullet. I measured their expander and it mic'd at .223. The Winchester cases are springing back too much and is causing the tight seating. I turned a new expander on the lathe but made it a bit too long so the decapping pin won't work. Instead of making another one, I'm going to call Hornady tomorrow. I'm just wondering if they have an expander that's .224 in diameter. When I made the new expander at that diameter, it took care of the problem. Has anybody dealt with their customer service? I never had to call them before about a problem with their product. __________________ Your friends will forgive your mistakes. Your enemies will kill you for it.

August 5, 2001, 09:31 PM	#3
ArmySon Staff Alumnus Join Date: April 14, 2000 Posts: 2,926	No, the mouths were all uniformed in color. Mal, the difference with .220 Swift is the thickness of the case. Saami spec - .18 With the necks being that thick, compounded by the hardness of the Winchester brass, a .223 expander just doesn't give enough umpf when expanding. __________________ Your friends will forgive your mistakes. Your enemies will kill you for it.

August 5, 2001, 09:57 PM	#5
ArmySon Staff Alumnus Join Date: April 14, 2000 Posts: 2,926	Yes, the cases are chamfered. They were done on a lathe even! __________________ Your friends will forgive your mistakes. Your enemies will kill you for it.

August 5, 2001, 10:35 PM	#6
swifter... Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: So. CA Mountains Posts: 540	If 'twas me, I'd try annealing the cases. Never had this happen with my Swift AI, but I routinely anneal all of them before fireforming. I was disappointed with Hornady dies in my 6mm, went to Redding when I imped it. Tom __________________ There are damn few situations so screwed up that adding government to them will not make 'em worse... The best homeland security is an armed & informed citizenery! Molon Labe!

August 5, 2001, 11:07 PM	#8
ArmySon Staff Alumnus Join Date: April 14, 2000 Posts: 2,926	Misread your question Mal. Yes, the cases are tempered. The pinkish color is very uniformed around the mouth. We tried the same die on some of my Norma brass and it had the same problem. It was not NEARLY as bad but the friction was still very noticeable. I'm curioius what Hornady will have to say. If they do not offer a .224 expander, I'm just going to order a bushing from Redding and convert my Hornady die __________________ Your friends will forgive your mistakes. Your enemies will kill you for it.

August 5, 2001, 09:16 PM	#2
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,949	Strictly in the "for what it's worth" category, I just mic'ed two RCBS expanders (.223 Rem and 22-250) and they are both .222 and I don't have any problems seating .224's. Even though they aren't for the .220 Swift, it think they are the same expander used for that round by RCBS. I have some Hornady ND die sets but none for rifles, so the expander type is different. No personal info on their customer service, but have heard nothing but good reports on them. I am wondering about the temper of the Win brass. If it was new, did it have a very slight pinkish tint at the mouth?

August 5, 2001, 09:53 PM	#4
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,949	Another thought on the problem. Are you chamfering the case mouths a little? When I started doing that about 25 years ago, the copper shaving stopped.

August 5, 2001, 10:46 PM	#7
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,949	Sorry to keep beating that old horse, Son, but you know how I love a mystery. Back to the RCBS example, you can see here that their expander ball is the same for the Swift as it is for the 22-250 and other .224 rounds. (The same is true for their carbide expander balls.) So if you happened to be using RCBS dies instead of Hornady, your problem would be even worse. I still question the temper of the case mouths. Every Winchester case I've bought new was slightly pinkish at the mouth, meaning it had been tempered properly. It should not spring back so much that you can't seat a bullet without shaving some copper. Be sure to let us know what the Hornady rep says.

August 6, 2001, 09:56 AM	#9
ArmySon Staff Alumnus Join Date: April 14, 2000 Posts: 2,926	Called Hornady and the rep stated that the problem is due to Winchester being a bit stiffer than everybody else's brass. A larger diameter expander ball would help with new Winchester brass but eventually would cause problems with other manufacturer's brass. Meaning, after a few shots and loads, the cases won't spring back and seating would become a problem due to the case mouth being oversized. He recommended annealing the necks. I'll try that later today but it irks me because since the cases are new, they should be at a relatively soft state. I think I'll stick to Norma brass after I shoot these lot of 500 cases up __________________ Your friends will forgive your mistakes. Your enemies will kill you for it.

August 6, 2001, 05:33 PM	#10
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,949	Bummer. Maybe you can fire about 20 and reload them to see if the case has softened up some. Annealing 500 would be a chore. But whatever you do, you should do it quickly because those virgin Winchester cases seem to multiply like rabbits when you leave them all together at night. Yours quintupled overnight!

August 6, 2001, 05:39 PM	#11
ArmySon Staff Alumnus Join Date: April 14, 2000 Posts: 2,926	That's for sure! It was an exaggeration to state the chore of annealing that many cases! __________________ Your friends will forgive your mistakes. Your enemies will kill you for it.

August 6, 2001, 10:57 PM	#12
MADISON Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2000 Location: Roanoke, Virginia Posts: 2,678	New Domention Dies Phone Hornady!!! I was having trouble with 223 cases sticking. I sent the Hornady New Homention Does back. They polished them and returned them to me. Upon their return I saw that their die wrench would not fit the de-capper. I phoned them and they are nice enough to send me one. Also, I have a neck sizing 224 die that the pin is TOO LARGE.

August 7, 2001, 07:19 AM	#13
Wild Romanian Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Posts: 448	I have had good luck with the Hornady people especially their tech dept. I have a 220 swift with Hornady new dimension dies and I do not like them. I much prefer RCBS, they are a lot easier to set up and use. I have had no problem with the new demension dies. I generally use Winchester cases and I get about 10 reloads for each case with very little and sometimes no trimming. How is this possible. I use a mild load of 37.5 grains of 4064 for a velocity of 3,700 fps. This is a low pressure loading and the all time classic accuracy load for the swift. Barrel life is also long too with this load. If you have a heavy barrel and a 2 ounce trigger and a properly bedded barrel you should average groups below 1/2 inch for 5 shots at 100 yards with this load. Your scope should be of at least 20 power for accurate paper punching. Remember your trigger pull is half your accuracy. Any trigger pull over 2 ounces and you are just defeating your purpose in regards to consistant accuracy. Remember if you hot rod the Swift expect little more than a 1,000 rounds of barrel life and expect to trim cases every time you shoot them. Expect necks to thicken too. Maybe this is why you are having trouble seating your bullets? Just a thought. W.R.

August 7, 2001, 02:53 PM	#15
Wild Romanian Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Posts: 448	Hey mal you didn't post why I did not like them . There is a reason if you had bothered to read the rest of my post and not quote me out of context. w.r.

August 7, 2001, 02:57 PM	#16
Wild Romanian Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Posts: 448	The reason I had bought the new dimension dies was that I was curious to see if the sliding seating collar had any advantage in accuracy over the traditional seating type dies. It did not. And it was certainly more of a pain in the but to use than the traditional dies. I do not like Lee dies either but I own them and find that they work just as well as the more expensive dies but their is a matter of pride of ownership and appreciation of good workmanship in the tools that you use. I have never liked the o rings that soon wear out in Lee dies but you cannot beat them for the money. I will still take RCBS any day. Just my personal preference.

August 7, 2001, 03:08 PM	#17
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,949	Actually WR, I did "bother" to read your entire post - twice. When you say you don't like the ND dies and then say you have had no problem with them, you'll have to agree that that is confusing. If you find them more difficult to setup and use than the RCBS, then isn't that a problem with them? BTW, I agree with you on the RCBS vs. ND die sets.

August 7, 2001, 03:14 PM	#18
Wild Romanian Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Posts: 448	I would also suggest you try another set of dies , if available from one of your friends and see if you have the same problem. You could also use a bit of powdered graphite or moly and see if this makes a difference. Mike bullets diameter and case mouth diameter and chamfer the hell out of the case. After once firing the case see if you still have the same problem with seating. You could also compare differnent lots of Winchester brass. Look on the inside of the case mouth to determine if there is any roughness on the I.D. of the brass necks. If brass is way to thick you could inside neck ream them. By experimenting with all variables you will sooner or later discover the problem. Is not reloading fun. It is enough to drive even the most experienced of us nuts from time to time. After 35 years of reloading I always seem to find a new gremlin to anilate on every reloading adventure. Good luck. W.R.

August 7, 2001, 03:35 PM	#19
Wild Romanian Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Posts: 448	For those of you who shoot a .220 swift with a factory barrel (not custom): If you experience foul out and groups opening up after about 20 rounds I suggest cleaning all the copper out and then using moly coated bullets. I have seen more than one factory barreled .220 swift hold its accuracy as long as 80 rounds without fouling out when switching to the moly coated bullets. By the way the moly is easily cleaned out and does not rust your barrel. Uban legends about moly spring up faster than I can crush them. Use a good grade of fine moly available from a bearing house like Applied industrial Tehnology (The old Bearings Inc. Co.) A small bottle will last you for years. Throw your bullets and some steel shot into a vibrator and in about 30 minutes they are done. Some of my friends are also using Hornady case lube on the molly bullets to keep from getting the moly all over their hands. The lube i am told dries on the moly coated bullets and keeps things much cleaner. I plan on getting some of this spray lube soon. W.R.

August 7, 2001, 05:33 PM	#20
ArmySon Staff Alumnus Join Date: April 14, 2000 Posts: 2,926	WR What do you think of the Hornady moly coated bullets? I've been shooting a lot of those through my rifle. __________________ Your friends will forgive your mistakes. Your enemies will kill you for it.

August 8, 2001, 07:14 AM	#21
Wild Romanian Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Posts: 448	Actually I have never used them. I find it much cheaper to moly coat my own because I shoot about 3,000 rounds a year in practice and in matches with my AR15. I have so far shot 8,500 rounds through this gun and it is still shooting 3/8 of an inch with .52 grain, 53 grain and 69 grain Sierra match bullets. I think this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that moly coated bullets sure do not hurt accuracy any. Clean up is a lot quicker also. Their is very little if any copper ever left in my barrel. Just as a note: I never went through the crazy process of breaking in the barrel. I simply shot it and then took it home and properly cleaned it. The gun barrel is stainless and it was never sent in and frozen. It shot 3/8 inch brand new right out of the box with no break in whatsoever. After seeing me shoot these groups at our range several shooters that had expensive $2,000 dollar custom AR's on order promply canceled their orders and went out and bought this Colt factory gun and they told me that they too achieved the same level of accuracy from their new Colts. Every once in a great while I actually do something right. I plan on buying another one of these Colts this winter. It will eventually replace the Colt I am shooting now. I am really wondering how many more rounds I can get at this level of accuracy. I guess time will eventually tell me. I did install a Jewell trigger, an adjustable butt plate and when shooting for accuracy I mount a B&L 6x24 variable scope. I cannot recommend the Jewell highly enough. The trigger enabled me to up my average score considerably. I only wish I would have bought and installed it sooner than I did. It was worth every penny of the price I paid for it. W.R.