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July 8, 2008, 03:47 PM | #1 |
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'58 Remington copy is real history
I picked up a '58 Remington today from a lawyer. Hadn't been shot or cleaned in a couple decades.
It could be a historic icon: The last cap and ball used in a shoot out.(I am not making this up.) The lawyer represented a biker in Ogden, Utah, who got into an altercation outside a bar on 25th Street (a bad place) sometime in the early 1980s (not 1880s). "Snake" pulled a knife or chain on him and the biker reached into his saddle bag where he kept his '58 Remington New Army replica. He shot and wounded his attacker. (Don't what load he used.) The lawyer defended him, arguing self-defense, and won. After the trial the lawyer got the '58 from the cops as a momento, after promising not to give it back to the biker. (I'm sure the biker would have been glad to have given it to him.) After all these years, the lawyer decided to "get it out of the house" and I got it. The lawyer's memory is sketchy, but I'm going to research the case--I'll have to go to the library in Ogden. Right now, I'm trying to un-freeze the screws and nipples. It's soaking in knock-er-loose. Other than that, it's in surprisingly good shape. I can't find any markings so far, except Navy Arms Co. Ridgefield, N.J. Last edited by Oquirrh; July 9, 2008 at 09:42 PM. Reason: corrected some facts |
July 8, 2008, 04:29 PM | #2 |
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No proofs or date code? Probably Euroarms or Pietta. I may be wrong but I think the older Navy Arms were Euroarms. Why didn't the biker get it back if he was acquitted?
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July 8, 2008, 05:12 PM | #3 |
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Very interesting story there & nice Remmie replica.
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July 8, 2008, 05:38 PM | #4 |
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I knew someone would ask that...
He coulda-shoulda got it back, but I think he was just glad to be a free man. The cops were being cops, as usual. As I said, the lawyer was sketchy on details.
BTW, might this be a kit gun. I got most of it apart--the hammer screw won't budge yet--and I noticed the inside of the wood grips have smudges of stain just inside the edges. It's reddish and I doubt blood would still be red after all these years. I found a couple markings, but they are all numbers. I'll see if the nipples match my Piettas. The barrel is in very good shape--someone must have squirted oil down it once in a while. The top 3/4s of the chambers are clean, but there's some rust and pitting just below the nipples. I'm going to soak the hammer screw all night and try again tomorrow. I may have to take it to a machinist or gunsmith who has a drill press or something to put controlled torque on it. I've just got a padded vice and some screw drivers. It locks up tight and straight. |
July 8, 2008, 05:48 PM | #5 |
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You might get it out by tapping on a screwdriver handle and twisting at the same time, kinda like an impact driver. Just be careful not to mar the screw head.
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July 8, 2008, 06:25 PM | #6 |
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Get the court records and police report if you can. If you can get a mug shot of the biker, all the better. Court records and the police report will establish the provenance of the gun. Then dig out any newspaper report from the area and add that to the file. That will establish that your replica Remington was actually used in a gunfight. By taking these measures, you authenticate the gun (get a letter from the attorney on his letterhead) and it'll increase the value of the gun. Grab a photo of the area too (I'm sure it's in the police report).
Dang, I can't believe I've offered that advice.
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July 8, 2008, 06:52 PM | #7 | |
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Whoa.
Quote:
I take great pride in NOT being a collector. I just like to shoot the dang things. Besides that Hammer screw is one with the frame--I may just throw it in the lake. |
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July 8, 2008, 06:52 PM | #8 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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July 8, 2008, 07:11 PM | #9 |
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Go ahead and shoot the darn thing, but git the papers I told you to git.
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July 9, 2008, 07:24 AM | #10 |
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I`d like to hear the story on how the cops unloaded the pistol after they took the guy in .....I don`t see any caps ..I take it the other chambers were empty .
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July 9, 2008, 01:52 PM | #11 |
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It was empty. I'm going to call the lawyer when i get a chance for more details.
I got the last frozen screws out. Harbor Freight sells a $6 mini-impact tool that works well and came with a flat screwdriver bit that was a perfect fit. BTW, it takes Pietta nipples. Hey, I'm going to shoot this "li'l bit of history" and maybe brown it, unless somebody wants to trade me even for another c/b revolver. Just sayin'. |
July 9, 2008, 02:01 PM | #12 |
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I wouldn't mind having it, it kinda matches my antiqued one but I don't have anything I want to trade for it.
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July 9, 2008, 03:01 PM | #13 |
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Story changes a bit...
Called the lawyer, he is really hazing on the details, in fact he asked if I turn anything up, to fill him in. He is retired and shredded his records.
The assailant, whose handle was "Snake," was not KILLED. He was shot in the 'lower extremity". The Remington Man was charged with attempted murder. Snake was coming after him with either a chain or a knife. To the best of his recollection, it did come up that the revolver should be returned to its owner. But, in addition to the attempted murder charge Remington Man was slapped with a carrying a concealed weapon without a permit charge. The lawyer says he may have also been a restricted person for other reasons. Utah has a very open state concealed weapon permit program now, but then, I think you had to get a permit from the police chief in Ogden to concealed carry (I think). When I get time, I'm going to run it down in the Ogden Standard-Examiner, though one biker shooting another in the leg wasn't big news in Ogden in those days. |
July 9, 2008, 03:17 PM | #14 |
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Assuming that you did not unload it, who did? I doubt that all 5 shots were fired so the gun should have had a few rounds in it?
Then again, maybe it was unloaded at the police station. Since it likely was used in court as evidence I doubt that would have show it "loaded". Interesting story. I wonder how many guys carry (legally or illegally) a loaded cap and ball revolver as self defense. Enjoy it! |
July 9, 2008, 04:06 PM | #15 | ||
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Quote:
Another fun fact: In defending Remington Man, the lawyer said that he used the victim's name, "Snake", as often as he could in front of the jury--for obvious reasons. Quote:
I hereby christen this '58 Remington "Snake" in honor of the man it bit. He was by the way, a member of the Sundowners |
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July 9, 2008, 04:11 PM | #16 | |
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Quote:
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July 9, 2008, 05:24 PM | #17 | |
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Quote:
If you verify the story, please share the details with us. Quite an interesting piece you have there. Having that sort of verified history will certainly increase the value of the gun, regardless of its condition.
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July 9, 2008, 11:26 PM | #18 | |
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Quote:
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July 9, 2008, 11:30 PM | #19 | |
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Quote:
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July 10, 2008, 01:50 AM | #20 | |
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Quote:
Anyway Go Shoot It Now! 1858 Army San Paolo (Now Euroarms) SG
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July 10, 2008, 09:31 AM | #21 |
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OT: I did an appeal on a mid-'90s killing in which a BP revolver was used. A .44 cal version of the 1851. It functioned very well. Gun looked like pure hell after years in evidence.
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July 10, 2008, 05:55 PM | #22 | |
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smokin',
Does your's have that "cast iron" look to the metal? That's why I think this was a kit gun that was never finished. Though it looks blue/gray in the foto, it's really "in the white." Quote:
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July 16, 2008, 07:00 PM | #23 |
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I can't believe i ran across this thread! I think i met the shooter you are talking about! I live in Alabama and started buying these type guns in 1990 or so and i met a biker whom was passing through the state in 91 or 92 and i was talking talking to him and we got on the subject of bp guns when he told me the story of him shooting an attacker with his 1858 na remington replica which he assembled from a kit and kept in his saddle bags on his bike. And he told me about the lawyer defending him and he let him keep the gun (he said he simply purchased a replacement in the next state!) he told me his name was Barry. Anyway i ran across this searching for remmie mods and thought it was probably the same guy i met and just had to register and respond. ....Scott
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July 16, 2008, 10:05 PM | #24 |
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Small world...
Great. That gives me another name, Barry, to use when I try to track this down.
I don't have time for the next couple months to get up to Ogden to check the records, but I might be able to do some of it from the library in Salt Lake City (unfortunately the incident is pre-online records). Thanks for taking the time to post. I feel like a "History Detective." |
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