Chronograph Data: Elmer Keith style vs Lee Tumble Lube 148 grain Wadcutter velocity. - Page 2

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · February 14, 2017, 09:07 PM

Yes I confirm that:

A sample of 20 cases I shot with the Elmer Keith style 148 grain WC loaded to 3.5 grain of powder Show more flattened primers than These Lee Tumble Lube design bullets (same 148 grain weight WC) loaded to 4.0 grain of powder.
The last shot 975 fps velocity TL bullet almost Shows no flattened primer.

Definetelly the Tumble Lube design reduces pressure while maintaining velocities.

My Explanation of the above:
Both Ends of the Lee Tumble Lube WC design measure about .360" of Diameter and on These the bullet is riding in the Barrel. While the TL groove area measures .355" which is therefore NOT in contact with the Barrel but full of lube.

**Unclenick** · February 15, 2017, 02:47 PM

Typically, velocities scatter on a bell curve distribution, which is why one sample at each load level is not enough to tell anything certain. In the worst case, with stretching, velocity may actually go down as powder goes up, and that's a dangerous pressure sign. Another problem is that in production revolvers, the different chambers are not always identical and don't always produce identical pressure. So a sample of at least 6 at each load level will take that into account.

In QuickLOAD I find the powder space you have is either smaller than for a 9 mm with a lead 147 grain bullet, or close to equal. It depends on assumptions. One way to clear that up is to load a TL bullet into a case that has been resized, but that has no primer or powder. Seat it deeply the way you have been doing. Then weigh it and record the weight. Then use a glue dispenser or a hypodermic syringe and needle to inject water in through the flash hole at the bottom of the primer pocket. You want to go slowly and tap it on the side a few times as you fill it to dislodge any trapped air bubbles you may have. Stop when the water has come to the flash hole. Do not fill the primer pocket with water. Weigh the case again with the water in it. If it were typical of a 9mm with 147 grain lead bullet, then it should be around 7.5 grains heavier. If the added weight is less than that, then you are probably getting higher pressures than a 9mm is, as you should reduce the seating depth until you have room for at least 7.5 grains of water behind the bullet.

I may have missed it, but I don't know your barrel length, so it is hard to tell by velocity if you are likely to be going to higher pressures than normal. Primers are not a reliable indicator in revolvers. In some revolvers primers do not get flat until after extraction becomes sticky. In others they are flat all the time. So it is difficult to tell that way.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · February 15, 2017, 04:15 PM

Once I have time I will try the water test.

Meanwhile in my experience primers are not flat at reduced velocities like 840 fps or around 200 ft/lbs of energy with this bullet.
As well according to my experience the Elmer Keith style bullet will have at 250 ft/lbs a flat primer but not so the Tumble Lube design bullet which will have an flat primer if it hits 1000 fps and above (even that flat primer is not very much pronounced).

I observe as well that Blazer brass will flatten the primers out sooner followed by Federal and the least flattened primers used to Show Winchester brass (I do not know if this is an real Observation or just Imagination of myself).

My Barrel length is 5.5" and the Revolver is an Pietta SAA 357 mag Revolver.

May it be as it is my Goal is to get about 350 ft/lbs of energy.
I shot today one of These and they shoot all low to aim (not as accurate as lower power loads). BTW factory (full power) ammo shoots all low to aim in this gun. The ammo has to have power though; what serves it if it has no ooompf!

The seating depth of These reloads is for sure 0.688".

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · February 15, 2017, 04:43 PM

The case deprimed, resized and seated with an bullet and without an primer weights 198.9 grain. The bullet is not weighting 148 grain since I drilled a hollow Point into it (it is just this one. The bullets I shoot have all 148 grains) and it is an Elmer Keith style bullet.
The water filled powder space round weights 206.4 grains.

206.4 - 198.9 = 7.5 grains.

I did not clean out the case as I never do. The primer pocket I did clean with the Lyman cleaning tool.
I did not have an TL bullet at Hand since I just recently got the mold and did not make yet much of 'em.
The scale was preadjusted before measuring and I used an Hornady beam scale.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · February 15, 2017, 08:07 PM

Would be glad if Unclenick could extrapolate some pressures, velocities and energies from QUICKLOAD:

These data using an 38 spl case, deep seated 148 grain WC lead bullet to 0.688" (empty powder space water weight is 7.5 grains) and 4.0 grains of VV N330 powder

and

for an 9mm Luger case seated to same depth (powder space water Volumen is 7.5 grain) and the Lee Truncated Cone 124 grain lead bullet. Same powder and charge. As this I load my 9mm Luger rounds and the water Volumen of the powder space is exactly the same in my 9mm Luger and the above 38 spl.
I would appreciate Unclenick if he can run QUICKLOAD for the 9mm Luger with VV N330 for the 124 grain bullet with charges of 3.0/3.1/3.2/3.3/3.4/3.5/3.6/3.7/3.8/3.9 and 4.0 grains

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · February 20, 2017, 11:24 AM

I shot a few more rounds over the Chronograph and put behind an A4 paper at 15 paces (meters) of distance.

Here the Chrono data:

Quote:

Created: 20-02-2017 12:17:54 PM Description: 148 grain Lee cast Wadcutter Notes 1: Elmer Keith style grease grooves Notes 2: First shot 3.8 grain O***a powder. Second shot 3.9 grain same powder Distance to Chrono (FT): 6.00 Ballistic Coefficient: 0.075 Bullet Weight (gr): 148.000 Altitude (FT): 400.0 Temp: N/A BP: N/A Shots # FPS FT-LBS PF 5 ERROR 2 4 17366 99123.54 2570.17 3 ERROR 2 2 1302 557.18 192.70 1 980 315.67 145.04 Average: 6549.33 StdDev: 9368.89 Min: 980 Max: 17366 Spread: 16386 True MV: 6609.04 Shots/sec: 0.02 Group Size (IN): 0.00

The first shot was a load of 3.8 grain of O***a powder and over the ELMER KEITH style 148 grain Lee Wadcutter and gave an velocity of 980 fps and 315 ft/lbs of energy.
The second shot was an reload of same bullet but loaded to 3.9 grain of same powder. Reading is most likely incorrect due to Chronograph Placement in plain sunshine.
The third shot was an 3.8 grain load as well but due to sunshine the Chrono did not read.
The fourth reading I actually did not shoot. Don't know what happened and what "ghost" flew through the chrono.
The fift reading is a shot and reload of 3.8 grain same powder. Again I guess due to sunshine the chrono gave an error.

Overall the first shot is correct the rest is not reliable readings.

Accuracy

Here the accuracy of the 4 shots I shot:

I was not particularly aiming at one spot of the A4 paper but roughly on the middle.
The one Flyer is most likely the 3.9 grain stiff load and observe that bullet did not carry much lube with it. This round had a slight tendency to sticky extraction.
The rest extracted without to be sticky but they were snug to the chamber. All had flat primers.
Again I observe Blazer brass has a tendency to flatten extremely the primers and Winchester flattens the least.
3.8 grain of O***a powder may be my accuracy load.

Observe on the A4 sheet paper the blue lube around the entry holes. That is a good sign for me since at exiting the Barrel the bullet still carries a lot of lube with it and does not run out of lube in the Barrel.

The powder I loaded with the 0.5 cc Lee powder dipper. I fill it till full then tap it a few times to settle and refill it. Then I scrape off any excess powder. That method gave me from 6 loads 5 of 3.8 grain powder Charge and 1 had 3.9 grain powder Charge (with this method). So it is very consistant.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · February 20, 2017, 06:04 PM

Here again I shot 2 shots of my reloads with 3.8 grain O***a scavenged shotshell powder.
The first shot again the Caldwell Chronograph App did not Register but the Chrono itself yes and it showed 981 fps which translates to 316 ft/lbs of energy.
That is plenty of energy since that is an accuracy load.

The second shot however was recorded by the Caldwell App and here is the result (Format is this time better):

Quote:

Created: 20-02-2017 06:29:31 PM
Description: 148 Lee lead cast Wadcutter
Notes 1: Elmer Keith style bullet. 3.8 grain O***a powder (scavenged)
Notes 2: 357 mag SAA Pietta 1873 5.5“ revolver
Distance to Chrono (FT): 4.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.075
Bullet Weight (gr): 148.000
Altitude (FT): 400.0
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
1 991 322.79 146.67
Average: 0.00
StdDev: 0.00
Min: 991
Max: 991
Spread: 0
True MV: 0.00
Shots/sec: 0.00
Group Size (IN): 0.00

There is therefore an 10 fps difference between both shot but I think that sample is ample representative.
With 3.8 grain of powder I do not get sticky cases but flat primers and ample energy Levels in the ballpark of an 9mm Luger.

Considerd with These 2 shots I did not hit my target (first bullet struck the target at the edge and both were high) but maybe I was flinching worried the chrono would not record again.

OBSERVATION: These Elmer Keith style bullets get me roughly the same velocity using 3.8 grain of O***a powder than the Tumble Lube design with 3.6 grain of O***a powder.
The TUMBLE LUBE design bullet definetelly must have an edge on Efficiency equivalent of an 0.2 grain of powder weight. You can save about 0.2 grain of powder, ceteris paribus, with the Tumble Lube design.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · March 1, 2017, 11:11 AM

I just weighted the water Content of my 9mm Luger cases loaded with 124 grain Lee lead cast Tumble Lube bullets.
As per instructions of Unclenick.

Those 9mm Luger give an water weight of 6.3 grains.

That is less than 7.5 grains but These lead bullets just do not chamber when not seated deeper.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · March 1, 2017, 01:26 PM

Vitha Vhiouri states 4.4 grain minimum powder for VV N330 using an 124 grain LSWC (I assume this is some sort of Trucated Cone. Which I am using) in the 9 mm Luger for an OAL of 1.142".

My OAL is 1.030".

So I saw on another forum an calculation to adjust minimum powder weight for reduced OAL.
Like this:
4.4 grain VV N330 divided 1.142" OAL multiplied my own reduced OAL of 1.030" = New minimum powder charge for the reduced OAL (deep seated bullet).

4.4 / 1.142 * 1.030 = 3.96 grains of N330.

Is this calculation correct?

The Lee 0.5 powder measure dipper gives me (scraped of) 3.8 grain to 3.9 grain of powder by volumen. The Water weight of the powder space in the case is 6.3 grains.

February 15, 2017, 02:47 PM	#27
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Typically, velocities scatter on a bell curve distribution, which is why one sample at each load level is not enough to tell anything certain. In the worst case, with stretching, velocity may actually go down as powder goes up, and that's a dangerous pressure sign. Another problem is that in production revolvers, the different chambers are not always identical and don't always produce identical pressure. So a sample of at least 6 at each load level will take that into account. In QuickLOAD I find the powder space you have is either smaller than for a 9 mm with a lead 147 grain bullet, or close to equal. It depends on assumptions. One way to clear that up is to load a TL bullet into a case that has been resized, but that has no primer or powder. Seat it deeply the way you have been doing. Then weigh it and record the weight. Then use a glue dispenser or a hypodermic syringe and needle to inject water in through the flash hole at the bottom of the primer pocket. You want to go slowly and tap it on the side a few times as you fill it to dislodge any trapped air bubbles you may have. Stop when the water has come to the flash hole. Do not fill the primer pocket with water. Weigh the case again with the water in it. If it were typical of a 9mm with 147 grain lead bullet, then it should be around 7.5 grains heavier. If the added weight is less than that, then you are probably getting higher pressures than a 9mm is, as you should reduce the seating depth until you have room for at least 7.5 grains of water behind the bullet. I may have missed it, but I don't know your barrel length, so it is hard to tell by velocity if you are likely to be going to higher pressures than normal. Primers are not a reliable indicator in revolvers. In some revolvers primers do not get flat until after extraction becomes sticky. In others they are flat all the time. So it is difficult to tell that way. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 15, 2017, 04:43 PM	#29
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	The case deprimed, resized and seated with an bullet and without an primer weights 198.9 grain. The bullet is not weighting 148 grain since I drilled a hollow Point into it (it is just this one. The bullets I shoot have all 148 grains) and it is an Elmer Keith style bullet. The water filled powder space round weights 206.4 grains. 206.4 - 198.9 = 7.5 grains. I did not clean out the case as I never do. The primer pocket I did clean with the Lyman cleaning tool. I did not have an TL bullet at Hand since I just recently got the mold and did not make yet much of 'em. The scale was preadjusted before measuring and I used an Hornady beam scale. Last edited by TheGuyOfSouthamerica; February 15, 2017 at 07:59 PM.

February 15, 2017, 08:07 PM	#30
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	Would be glad if Unclenick could extrapolate some pressures, velocities and energies from QUICKLOAD: These data using an 38 spl case, deep seated 148 grain WC lead bullet to 0.688" (empty powder space water weight is 7.5 grains) and 4.0 grains of VV N330 powder and for an 9mm Luger case seated to same depth (powder space water Volumen is 7.5 grain) and the Lee Truncated Cone 124 grain lead bullet. Same powder and charge. As this I load my 9mm Luger rounds and the water Volumen of the powder space is exactly the same in my 9mm Luger and the above 38 spl. I would appreciate Unclenick if he can run QUICKLOAD for the 9mm Luger with VV N330 for the 124 grain bullet with charges of 3.0/3.1/3.2/3.3/3.4/3.5/3.6/3.7/3.8/3.9 and 4.0 grains Last edited by TheGuyOfSouthamerica; February 15, 2017 at 08:30 PM.

March 1, 2017, 01:26 PM	#34
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	Adjusted powder charge to OAL calculations Vitha Vhiouri states 4.4 grain minimum powder for VV N330 using an 124 grain LSWC (I assume this is some sort of Trucated Cone. Which I am using) in the 9 mm Luger for an OAL of 1.142". My OAL is 1.030". So I saw on another forum an calculation to adjust minimum powder weight for reduced OAL. Like this: 4.4 grain VV N330 divided 1.142" OAL multiplied my own reduced OAL of 1.030" = New minimum powder charge for the reduced OAL (deep seated bullet). 4.4 / 1.142 * 1.030 = 3.96 grains of N330. Is this calculation correct? The Lee 0.5 powder measure dipper gives me (scraped of) 3.8 grain to 3.9 grain of powder by volumen. The Water weight of the powder space in the case is 6.3 grains.

February 14, 2017, 09:07 PM	#26
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	Yes I confirm that: A sample of 20 cases I shot with the Elmer Keith style 148 grain WC loaded to 3.5 grain of powder Show more flattened primers than These Lee Tumble Lube design bullets (same 148 grain weight WC) loaded to 4.0 grain of powder. The last shot 975 fps velocity TL bullet almost Shows no flattened primer. Definetelly the Tumble Lube design reduces pressure while maintaining velocities. My Explanation of the above: Both Ends of the Lee Tumble Lube WC design measure about .360" of Diameter and on These the bullet is riding in the Barrel. While the TL groove area measures .355" which is therefore NOT in contact with the Barrel but full of lube.

February 15, 2017, 04:15 PM	#28
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	Once I have time I will try the water test. Meanwhile in my experience primers are not flat at reduced velocities like 840 fps or around 200 ft/lbs of energy with this bullet. As well according to my experience the Elmer Keith style bullet will have at 250 ft/lbs a flat primer but not so the Tumble Lube design bullet which will have an flat primer if it hits 1000 fps and above (even that flat primer is not very much pronounced). I observe as well that Blazer brass will flatten the primers out sooner followed by Federal and the least flattened primers used to Show Winchester brass (I do not know if this is an real Observation or just Imagination of myself). My Barrel length is 5.5" and the Revolver is an Pietta SAA 357 mag Revolver. May it be as it is my Goal is to get about 350 ft/lbs of energy. I shot today one of These and they shoot all low to aim (not as accurate as lower power loads). BTW factory (full power) ammo shoots all low to aim in this gun. The ammo has to have power though; what serves it if it has no ooompf! The seating depth of These reloads is for sure 0.688".

March 1, 2017, 11:11 AM	#33
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	I just weighted the water Content of my 9mm Luger cases loaded with 124 grain Lee lead cast Tumble Lube bullets. As per instructions of Unclenick. Those 9mm Luger give an water weight of 6.3 grains. That is less than 7.5 grains but These lead bullets just do not chamber when not seated deeper.