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March 25, 2011, 05:01 PM | #1 |
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ATF To Ban Tactical Shotguns?
Hey Everyone,
I got an e-mail today that said that the ATF is trying to ban tactical shotguns. Now it is obvious to me that this person is using that inflammatory remark to get more sales of their book. However, i wanted to know if anyone knew if this claim was true about the ATF ban on the shotguns? ( I am planning on buying a benelli m-4 ) The e-mail is below: ALERT: ATF to Ban Tactical Shotguns Dear Anthony, I hope you're not one of those gun owners who said, "They'll never come for my shotguns." If you are, I'm afraid the rain is about to fall on your parade. You see, the ATF is coming for your shotguns ... with a vengeance. The ATF wants to ban the importation of any tactical shotgun it views as not meeting the "sporting suitability" use as defined in the Gun Control Act of 1968. That means all they need to do is make up a bunch of "features" that don't (according to them) "fit" a sporting use of a shotgun. It's an open door for an outright shotgun ban ... the very same shotguns that are probably in your gun safe right this minute. This ban may seem too horrible and too outrageous to be real. But believe me when I tell you: This is no hoax. Make no mistake: This ban will affect hundreds of gun makers who produce shotguns that are currently in use not only by law enforcement and the military in the United States but also home owners who simply want an effective home defense shotgun. The real question is, what can you do about it? For starters, get informed about these guns. Our friends at Gun Digest have just released a new book you need to own. It's called The Gun Digest Book of the Tactical Shotgun. It's brand new, and you need it to make a good decision about all the new options on the market (options the ATF may soon outlaw). This book covers everything you need to know about which tactical shotguns and accessories are the best and what will fit your fighting style and needs. Buy this book. Then buy a shotgun. In that order. But there's one more thing. Part of the proceeds from your purchase of this book (and my other recommended books found below) goes to support the National Association for Gun Rights. So take a minute to stockpile a good assortment of books. Add The Gun Digest Book of the Tactical Shotgun to your cart while you still can. Only one week left! Thanks for your support, Dudley Brown Executive Director PS - The ATF is proposing to ban importation on all tactical shotguns it asserts don't have any "sporting" use. If they succeed, this will be the most dangerous interpretation of the 1968 Gun Control Act ever envisioned and will outlaw thousands of perfectly legitimate home defense shotguns. To give NAGR the resources to stop this threat, you can buy the newly-released The Gun Digest Book of the Tactical Shotgun at special NAGR supporter prices (for only one more week!) ... plus a portion of the proceeds from your purchase will go back to NAGR to stop this backdoor gun ban. |
March 25, 2011, 05:26 PM | #2 |
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I don't believe anything like this that I get in my email. It is the same as spam to me until I verify it independently.
I haven't heard anything.
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March 25, 2011, 05:55 PM | #3 |
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There is some truth about the ATF wanting to ban the import of "evil black shotguns." http://www.nraila.org/legislation/read.aspx?id=6172
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March 25, 2011, 08:26 PM | #4 |
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Guess according to the ATF...
... "threegun" isn't a sporting use.
Not that I like the "sporting use" doctrine in the first place... |
March 25, 2011, 08:29 PM | #5 |
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What features make it "tactical"? I have to use my black 12ga for HD and shooting trap, I can't afford a fancy engraved one.
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March 25, 2011, 11:12 PM | #6 |
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I am guessing they mainly want to stop the import of Saiga shotguns, and that is a damn shame. They are perfectly applicable for hunting, especially bird hunting.
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March 26, 2011, 05:40 AM | #7 |
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Noticed that "import" word in that e-mail as well. Aren't Remington and Mossberg two of many USA firearm manufacturers? They aren't imported. Benelli also has a USA plant, I don't think they would need to import the receivers for the supers. (M or nova series)
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March 26, 2011, 05:32 PM | #8 | |
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Two parts standard fear mongering, one part curiously placed advertisement, and one half of one drop of truth.
The BATFE has proposed restrictions on the importation of shotguns. http://www.atf.gov/publications/fire...n-shotguns.pdf I don't think the purpose is to control the Saiga. If you read the pdf, you will see that the Saiga as imported would continue to be acceptable. In fact, it would affect so few shotguns that I'm not sure what the point is. It has been speculated that perhaps the true purpose is to set precedent on what is considered a "non-sporting" shotgun so that they can take a stab at domestically produced "non-sporting" shotguns. Quote:
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March 26, 2011, 06:19 PM | #9 | |
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Quote:
According to? |
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March 26, 2011, 08:40 PM | #10 |
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According to the ATF's own definition of sporting shotguns.
If you've read the study, they state those criteria very clearly. They specifically state they see no difference between detachable magazines and tube magazines... detachables don't swap out as fast as some think and tubes are faster to reload than many might believe. The list of criteria (beginning page 14 of the .pdf): 1) folding/telescoping stock 2) bayonet lug 3) flash suppressor 4) magazine larger than 5 rounds or a drum 5) grenade launcher mount 6) tactical rails 7) light enhancing devices (basically, night sights) 8) excessive weight 9) excessive bulk 10) forward grip (not a handguard, but an actual protruding grip) As imported, there's no substantive difference between a Saiga 12 and any other semiauto shotgun like a Beretta 391. Sure, the Beretta is prettier and probably better for clays, birds, etc., but that isn't the ATF's concern. About the only gun I know of that might be affected by the study right now is the Chinese copy of the 1897 Trench Gun (thanks to the bayonet mount). My only concern is what happens to modified imported shotguns- while we've generally acted like 922r applies to shotguns, they aren't necessarily covered there. It is possible that the ATF could be *really* problematic and treat imported shotguns modified to an unsporting configuration as destructive devices or some other restricted firearm. Or they could grandfather them. Or they could just say comply with 922r parts counts. Last edited by Technosavant; March 26, 2011 at 08:46 PM. |
March 26, 2011, 08:52 PM | #11 |
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Another big issue is that ANY firearm with a bore of greater than 0.50" is a destructive device unless the Attorney General finds that such a firearm has a suitable sporting purpose.
If shotguns meeting the above configuration can't be imported because they are not suitable for sporting purposes, it is a very short leap to applying the same rationale to domestic shotguns - and the Attorney General already has this authority under the 1968 GCA - he doesn't need to ask Congress for permission to do this. |
March 26, 2011, 09:17 PM | #12 | |
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The comment period is open until May 1st. I encourage everyone to register their concerns with them. According to the ATF:
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March 27, 2011, 06:40 AM | #13 | |
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Hence why we shouldn't worry about a tactical shotgun ban. The 870 series is one of the most common "tactical" shotguns out there, let alone any sort of mod to an 1100 for some semi-auto goodness. Just no detachable magazines which I think is the real target here. I know there used to be a mod for detachable mags for I think the Ithica or Mossbergs. But those were pump models.
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March 27, 2011, 08:32 AM | #14 | |
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The ATF's interest in so called "tactical" shotguns goes back to 1984. In 1984 the ATF invoked the "sporting purposes" clause of the GCA of 1968 to ban the import of a shotgun. This was the first time the "sporting purposes" clause was applied to a long gun.
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March 27, 2011, 09:06 AM | #15 | |
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March 27, 2011, 10:15 AM | #16 |
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Yes, but there's also plenty of language in the study that says that part of their analysis focuses on "general recognition" as a sport. That tells me it's time for someone to go out and start organizing Defensive Shotgun Sports. Devise a scoring system for 2 shots each at 4 silhouettes at 20 yards . . . Maybe someone has already done this and we should all go sign up.
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March 27, 2011, 10:51 AM | #17 | |
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Quote:
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- Jon Disequilibrium facilitates accommodation. 9mm vs .45 ACP? The answer is .429 |
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March 27, 2011, 11:53 AM | #18 | ||||
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Quote:
The ATF Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns says that the following features indicate a shotgun is not suitable for sporting purposes: (1) Folding, telescoping or collapsible stocks (2) Bayonet lugs (3) Flash suppressors (4)magazines over 5 rounds; or a drum magazine (5) grenade launcher mounts (6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel) (7) light enhancing devices (8) excessive weight (greater than 10lbs for 12ga and smaller) (9) excessive bulk (greater than 3" in width and 4" in depth) (10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the shotgun with the shooter's extended hand "Therefore shotguns containing any of these features are not particularly suitable for nor readily adaptable to generally recognized sporting purposes..." Note that is includes even one feature from the above list and it applies to all shotguns, regardless of how the action works, etc. Quote:
"In regard to sporting purposes, the working group found no appreciable difference between integral tube magazines and detachable box magazines. Each type allowed for rapid loading, reloading and firing of ammunition." As you can see from the ATF's own study - it doesn't matter whether the magazine is detachable or tubular. If it holds more than 5 rounds, it is non-sporting. The action is also irrelevant because it is the bore size that makes it a destructive device once it is determined to be non-sporting. Quote:
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There is nothing paranoid about this. All you have to do is read the current law and read how ATF is proposing to change it in relation to imported shotguns and you should have big red flags going up. |
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March 27, 2011, 02:14 PM | #19 |
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email to ATF shotgun study
Saw the link in Tom Servo's post, and decided to give it a whirl. Sent this to the address in the link:
To whom it may concern, I've recently read about ATFE's intention to ban the importation of the Saiga-12 shotgun. Apparently, the agency is doing a study, and looking for some feedback, so here's mine. First, as far as "sporting purpose" goes, the majority of shooting sports these days have nothing to do with hunting. IPSC, IDPA, and GSSF are not at all hunting-related. Similarly, neither are Three-Gun competitions. The Saiga is particularly well suited to Three-Gun, and to me that means it has plenty of "sporting purpose." Note: I do not own a Saiga at this time, though I may choose to acquire one later, as I'm considering getting into Three-Gun. Second, a large percentage of American gun-owners think the whole "sporting purpose" issue was just a bunch of legalistic double-talk, which the government used to circumvent the Second Amendment. I'm not quite sure how ATFE or anybody else thinks the recent Heller decision doesn't mean that "sporting purpose" will eventually be completely thrown out, but I'm quite confident that it will. I swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States back in 1989, and I have a keen dislike for politicians who do their best to circumvent that document. I spent over twenty years in uniform doing just that. These days, I'm in defense contract work, upholding and defending in Afghanistan, though not in uniform any more. And I resent feeling that my efforts can be arbitrarily undone at the whim of any bureaucrat. Thanks for your attention, M.D. Leake LCDR USN (ret) |
March 27, 2011, 02:30 PM | #20 | |
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Quote:
The ATF's own document shows that it isn't the detachable magazine. I think Bartholomew is right- the real concern for us isn't what guns might fall under the import ban. The real concern is what might happen to those shotguns (even those that would be considered domestic production) if the ATF starts being touchy about the sporting purpose clause in relation to shotguns. |
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March 27, 2011, 04:37 PM | #21 |
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The Gun Control Act of 1968 banned importation of ALL firearms into the US except those deemed by the ATF to have a "sporting purpose".
The recent proposal is ATF fine tuning what it's definition of "sporting purpose" is for shotguns. It only affects imported guns. |
March 27, 2011, 05:15 PM | #22 | |
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It has nothing to do with Remington or any other US made shotgun. |
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March 27, 2011, 06:34 PM | #23 |
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Raise your hand if you own a shotgun with a bore diameter of .50 inch or greater... .... ...
Now go back and read Barts last post. In particular, read what he copied from 18 USC 921. I do read other gun forums. In all of them, those that understand 18 USC 921, understand that all the regulating authority of the BATFE come from the Attorney General delegating that authority to them. If the BATFE chooses not to recognize IDPA, IPSC, GSSF and Three-Gun as sports, what sports are left? If the BATFE chooses to initiate the list of Evil Modifications to Shotguns, then anything other than a plain Jane shotty, is a destructive device. |
March 28, 2011, 06:09 AM | #24 |
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Every action that has banned a shotgun from import was done under the "sporting purposes" clause of the GCA 1968.
IMO: Dudley Brown and his NAGR are less than credible. i have researched the NAGR very thoroughly and cannot find where that organization has donated one red cent to our cause. Beware of any organization that has a big red "Donate Now" on it's home page. Last edited by thallub; March 28, 2011 at 07:22 AM. |
March 28, 2011, 08:04 AM | #25 | |||
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Quote:
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So if a shotgun can be banned for import because it is NOT generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes as determined by the Attorney General, what does that suggest about the consequences for domestically produced shotguns? Quote:
That is what the point of the above linked study is. They are now attempting to establish the criteria for what is "suitable for sporting purposes" in regards to imported shotguns. The problem is once that determination is made for imported shotguns, it makes the status of domestic shotguns with those same features very tenuous due to 18 USC 921 (4)(B). |
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