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Old November 9, 2017, 06:10 PM   #51
DPris
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+P isn't, as a rule, all that much hotter than most .38 Special commercial stuff widely sold 30 years ago.

I would not use a LOT of it in an Airweight variation (as in regular weekend use), but a few now & then shouldn't damage a lightweight frame.
I'll be swapping the HST into one of mine that gets carried several times during the year.

As for older guns, +P should be fine in an older revolver of good quality & in good mechanical condition going back to about 1925.
The early 1920s saw the incorporation of "modern" heat treating spread throughout the industry.
By 1925, Smiths & Cols should have all been treated better than previously.
Before that, the steels were notably softer, and you risk premature wear on those older guns.

In more modern times, the Colt Detective Specials & other models using the same frame toward the end of Colt DA revolver production COULD develop frame stretching with +P.
The last DS manuals recommended that those guns be returned to Colt for frame stretch evaluation at 3000 rounds of +P.

Use of +P depends on the model.
Airweight Smiths, I would not recommend it regularly.
Carrying +P in one, and shooting maybe a handful of +Ps a year for familiarization, should be fine for many years.

A steel Smith or Ruger snub, blast away.
Full-sized Colt DA (Trooper frame), same.
Alloy framed full-sized Smith (K-Frame), might want to do +P irregularly.
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Old November 9, 2017, 06:54 PM   #52
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Quote:
Doc Holiday 1950 wrote:
What's a great 38 sp. SD ammo?
I don't mean this to sound flippant, but the answer would have to be; one that has a case, primer, powder and bullet.

There are as many perspectives on SD ammunition as there are people making it. And unless you know before it happens what specific circumstance you will be in when you need to use the pistol for self defense, anything I (or anyone else) tells you would be sheer speculation on our part.
  • Are you going to face multiple assailants?
  • How will they be equipped?
  • How will they be dressed?
  • Will he/they be amateurs or professionals?
  • Will you see them coming or will the attack be a total surprise?
  • Where will this shootout take place; home, office, public place?
  • At what distance will this take place?
  • Will you be alone or responsible for others?
  • Will there be a crowd of people around (so that you have to worry about what's in back of your "target")?
  • How much do you practice?
  • How good of a shot are you - really?
  • Will you be shooting for center of mass or the "target's" head?
  • Will the bullet you fire strike bone or just soft tissue?
And I'm sure if we brainstormed a little while we'd come up with some other things to consider as well. But, this should be sufficient to demonstrate that you can't pick an optimal or "great" bullet for an unknown situation you have yet to encounter.

A 38 Special bullet will - assuming the "target" isn't wearing a ballistic vest or multiple layers of clothing that provide similar effect - make a 9 millimeter hole in your victim. If it is an expanding bullet and expands by 50%, it will make a 13 or 14 millimeter hole in your victim. Will one take your victim "out of the fight" whereas the other bullet will not? Possibly. It depends where you can place the shot and what it encounters when it arrives there.

What you have chosen will be fine. In the event you ever need to shoot someone with it, it will probably be effective.
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Old November 9, 2017, 07:23 PM   #53
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In a lightweight small frame revolver +P maybe snappy ...
My uncle who retired from the CIA .. He carried Wadcutters in his J frame

Last edited by Buckeye!; November 9, 2017 at 07:50 PM.
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Old November 9, 2017, 09:05 PM   #54
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Quote:
I don't mean this to sound flippant, but the answer would have to be; one that has a case, primer, powder and bullet.

There are as many perspectives on SD ammunition as there are people making it. And unless you know before it happens what specific circumstance you will be in when you need to use the pistol for self defense, anything I (or anyone else) tells you would be sheer speculation on our part.

Are you going to face multiple assailants?
How will they be equipped?
How will they be dressed?
Will he/they be amateurs or professionals?
Will you see them coming or will the attack be a total surprise?
Where will this shootout take place; home, office, public place?
At what distance will this take place?
Will you be alone or responsible for others?
Will there be a crowd of people around (so that you have to worry about what's in back of your "target")?
How much do you practice?
How good of a shot are you - really?
Will you be shooting for center of mass or the "target's" head?
Will the bullet you fire strike bone or just soft tissue?

And I'm sure if we brainstormed a little while we'd come up with some other things to consider as well. But, this should be sufficient to demonstrate that you can't pick an optimal or "great" bullet for an unknown situation you have yet to encounter.

A 38 Special bullet will - assuming the "target" isn't wearing a ballistic vest or multiple layers of clothing that provide similar effect - make a 9 millimeter hole in your victim. If it is an expanding bullet and expands by 50%, it will make a 13 or 14 millimeter hole in your victim. Will one take your victim "out of the fight" whereas the other bullet will not? Possibly. It depends where you can place the shot and what it encounters when it arrives there.

What you have chosen will be fine. In the event you ever need to shoot someone with it, it will probably be effective.
Take your "victim" out of the fight?

In the context of SD, it is why many of us prefer pistols that are effective in a wider spectrum of situations.
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Old November 9, 2017, 09:15 PM   #55
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My uncle who retired from the CIA .. He carried Wadcutters in his J frame
With all due respect, what did he do for the CIA?

I saw lots of people shot as a street cop and wadcutters are not very impressive, especially from a snubby.
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Old November 9, 2017, 10:22 PM   #56
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He really didn't talk alot about it .. I only saw him during holidays and such .. He retired in the mid seventies...
Id say during the 60's and early 70's Wadcutters was as good as any in a 2 inch barreled snubbie ...

But , I doubt your " due respect " My Uncle passed away from a massive heart attack in 84 ..after serving his Country first in the Marines and then in the CIA
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Old November 9, 2017, 10:44 PM   #57
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No offense intended, but what he did then with his J has no bearing on what's available today.
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Old November 9, 2017, 11:24 PM   #58
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Agreed .. Better options today ...
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Old November 10, 2017, 09:50 AM   #59
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I feel a little bad about my previous post as if I was taking a “shot” at a long time poster’s opinion and knowledge (albeit without naming him). That was not my intent as I do respect the unnamed poster’s knowledge and opinions. My point was merely that I trust information that I’ve found hundreds of times from fifty different sources that agree much more than information that I’ve found hundreds of times from one source. I certainly defer to the wealth of expertise on this forum.

I still avoid use of Plus P in my older airweights, though I’d use them in a pinch.
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Old November 10, 2017, 10:45 AM   #60
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Quote:
But , I doubt your " due respect "
You should not. I have served our country my entire adult life. I am now in my late 50's.
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Old November 10, 2017, 11:17 AM   #61
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I thank you for your service..

The 38spl Wadcutter is still a effective round for a lightweight snubbie ..the sharp edges of the round cuts its way through tissue and pentrates well

The first concern of a SD round is you have the ability to accurately and quickly fire a follow up shot ....
Next is penetration ... The WC will not be effected by layers of clothing... ..
This not only my view but thousands of others ...

But now with technology in bullet constuction they are a few +P 38 spl loads that will penetrate and expand reliably with a 2 inch or less barrel... But with +p increased pressure = increased recoil in lightweight snubbies...
They are even fewer standard pressure 38 spl rounds that will both penetrate and expand ..with a 2 inch or less barrel.

Thats why the mild wadcutter maybe a viable choice for some..

Last edited by Buckeye!; November 10, 2017 at 12:07 PM.
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Old November 11, 2017, 02:03 AM   #62
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what would be good 38 special plus p loads in a 4 inch revolver?
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Old November 11, 2017, 05:52 AM   #63
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https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

Here is a link that shows Gel block testimg pf 38 spl in 4 inch ans two inch barrels
It looks like Remingtons version of the old FBI load performed well, 158gr 38spl +p LSWCHP
And the Winchester PXD1 load did well ...
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Old November 11, 2017, 02:09 PM   #64
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Quote:
The 38spl Wadcutter is still a effective round for a lightweight snubbie ..the sharp edges of the round cuts its way through tissue and pentrates well
One of my fellow officers was shot with a 38 wadcutter, it penetrated just enough to encounter the pelvis, he shot and killed his attacker with a 357.

I have seen more than one inner city dweller shot with 38's refuse medical treatment. I never saw that with a 357.

Quote:
But now with technology in bullet constuction they are a few +P 38 spl loads that will penetrate and expand reliably with a 2 inch or less barrel... But with +p increased pressure = increased recoil in lightweight snubbies...
Penetrate and expand in what jello? Increased recoil? Unless you are infirm it is a range issue.
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Old November 11, 2017, 03:32 PM   #65
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I like to remind everyone that in my original post the 2 revolvers that I was asking about 38 sp. self defense ammo were '' BOTH SOLID STEEL REVOLVERS & NOT LIGHT WEIGHT OR SYNTHETIC MADE/PARTS REVOLVERS". The Ruger GP 100 4.2" in 357 magnum is made of blued carbon steel or polished stainless steel. The EAA 2' 357 in magnum's frame is made of steel.
So, let's stay on point please.! This question is very important to me & probably to alot of others out there who own steel revolvers & not hybrid lightweight "gee I can carry this in my bathing suit revolvers".
Ther were some great advice but most of it got lost in the discussions about light weight revolvers.
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Old November 11, 2017, 04:10 PM   #66
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Here it is
One of tbe few 38spl rounds that will penetrate and expand in ballastic gel ....out of a two inch barrel
You can check the Lucky gunner site for alot of tests in both two inch and 4 inch barrels

They are tested in ballistic gel ...
Its hard to find volunteers two have bullets shot in them..
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Old November 11, 2017, 04:11 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormyone View Post
Buffalo Bore has an excellent 158gr 38 special semi wad cutter hollow cavity bullet.

1,000fps/M.E. 351 ft.lbs - that’s from a 2” barrel. That’s a serious self defense round.
This. Not much can beat the BB 158gr LSWCHP out of a snubby.
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Old November 11, 2017, 05:06 PM   #68
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Quote:
Its hard to find volunteers two have bullets shot in them..
Not really. Thugs are victimizing people everyday.
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Old November 12, 2017, 10:52 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye! View Post

They are tested in ballistic gel ...
Its hard to find volunteers two have bullets shot in them..
Not if you have an Antifa rally nearby.....



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Old November 20, 2017, 07:24 PM   #70
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The spear gold dot 135 grain 38+ P got a good rating from the New York Police Department. They were satisfied with the results from there Two inch and four-inch off-duty and back up revolvers used on the street. This was reported by Masad Ayoob a few years back.
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Old November 21, 2017, 02:32 AM   #71
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I just saw a gelatin test with the Federal 130 grain HST +p. Excellent expansion. I've been happy with Gold Dots but am due for some fresh defense ammo as it's been maybe 20 years since I replaced my .357 ammo for the house. It's a new thread in another major forum if anyone is interested.
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Old November 21, 2017, 05:52 AM   #72
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I use Gold Dots, or Hornady XTP. 158 grain standard pressure.. They shoot true to the sigbts on my guns.
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