Shots per groups

[ninosdemente]

I have been reading online different answers to this question. So out of curiosity, how many shots are suggested/do you make per group? I have read from 3, 5 which came up more and did see other amount but those were mentioned more.

This is for .223 and I actually purchased: Winchester, Frontier, American Eagle, PPU and Remington UMC all at 55gr.

I understand a lot will have to do with me as well.

[dahermit]

It depends upon your purpose for shooting groups. If it is to verify your scope setting on your hunting rifle, then three shots are enough. However, for the purpose of evaluating the potential accuracy of a rifle, or any other purpose that involves comparing one rifle to another, then five shots should be the standard inasmuch as five shots has been the default standard for many years. Note that one cannot expect to legitimately compare a three-shot group to one containing five shots...much like apples and oranges. Five shots will tell you more than three. Yeah, I know that ten shots will tell you more, but few formal target contests (not the default standard) require ten-shot groups.

[ninosdemente]

Thanks for the info dahermit.

Just trying to figure out what my rifle may like better. Perhaps, may need to get different brands, grains, etc. that I'm not thinking about right now but would like to get a starting point if it will help me.

[ninosdemente]

One of the rifles will be for scope setting as it is used for hunting (30-06). The other is just for range use (.223).

[dahermit]

In that case, I would suggest five shot groups. I wrote a computer program one time that would place either three or five shot groups randomly within one-inch on a simulated target. I was taken aback how often mere random shots over-lapped on the target...way more so with three-shot groups than five. Therefore, the more accurate a rifle is, the more likely shots will over-lap randomly giving the false impression of shooting tight groups. That is why some rifles will shoot an amazingly tight group that then be unable to ever do it again...five shots reduces the chance for that completely random event.

[bamaranger]

Five has been the standard, but since components and ammo have gotten so pricey, I've been shooting 3's.

One trick I've read is to standardize your target, and use the same backer, ie, another exact target. Mark the backer, and use it behind successive groups with that same load (or others, see below). As time passes, you will have a very shot out hole in your backer, but the size of the group remaining (on the backer) will give a good idea of what type of accuracy your rifle is producing overall.

I've used that trick when shooting different bullet weights, to conclude that some of my hunting rifles (not all) can be shot with different loads and produce usable hunting accuracy.

[Skadoosh]

I have always operated under the premise that more than three will give a better sample size to verify zero given the time between shots used. This gives me a better idea of what changes to expect as far as POA/POI go as your barrel heats up. Personally, I prefer five but occasionally shot ten.

[jmr40]

Three shots tell you how accurate your load is, 5 shots tell you how accurate the rifle is, 10 shots tell you how accurate the shooter is.

Most guys who shoot in competition use 5 shots since they will usually shoot at least 5 shots in each round of competition. As a hunter I've always felt 3 shots told me everything I needed to know. I'll never shoot more than 3 at any big game animal. Most rifles accuracy deteriorates some as the barrel heats up after multiple shots. Most trigger pullers lose concentration as more and more shots are fired. If you're going to shoot 5 or more shots in competition that is information you need to know. How my rifle and I perform after 3 isn't relevant to how I use it.

Actually I'm much more interested in how the rifle, load, and I perform over a period of time. The average of multiple 3 shot groups shot over a period of time in varying weather and lighting conditions is what I use to determine how accurate I am with a particular rifle. I don't come to any real conclusions until I've fired at least 10 groups of 3. And I really like to stretch things out to 200-300 yards. Often a rifle that shows promise at 50 or 100 yards doesn't do so well at 200 or more.

A single group or 3, 5, or even 10 shots all fired within a few minutes of each other often lead to false assumptions.

[Mobuck]

I no longer shoot target type rifles. My hunting rifles are tested using 3 shot groups. If a group isn't satisfactory, I set the rifle aside to cool and try again later.

[agtman]

So out of curiosity, how many shots are suggested/do you make per group? I have read from 3, 5 which came up more and did see other amount but those were mentioned more.

3-shots only establishes a point of aim on paper. Tyros, lazy shooters, and the overly cheap think 3-shots is 'good 'nough' to be called a 'group.' It's not.

5-shots is a baseline group - more commonly a string or sequence of three or four of them (with time between for barrel cooling) - and is necessary to reliably vet the accuracy of a particular load (factory or handload) in a particular rifle. Change the load, or switch to another the rifle even using the same load, and you'll have to start all-over.

This pertains to 'hunting'-grade rifles, not precision or bench-rest rifles. For those rifles, a 10-shot string is often used to establish accuracy, because from the git-go they've been set up with tuned and blue-printed actions, Match-grade barrels, and high-end triggers set especially light.

This is for .223 and I actually purchased: Winchester, Frontier, American Eagle, PPU and Remington UMC all at 55gr.

Don't expect much. Most of that stuff is 'junk' ammo. Good as 'range only' blasting ammo but not much else.

The high-grade .223 Match stuff is what you need if you really want to vet your rifle's accuracy potential - especially if shooting a 10-shot 'precision' group.

[hdbiker]

I buy Redfield sight in targets for the range by the hundred. They have 5 bulleyes, Four shots per bull = 20 rounds. works for me. habiker

[Art Eatman]

I followed the advice of my gunsmith uncle when he and my father put me into the centerfire business with an '06, back in 1950. Five shots is a test of the rifle.

Once the basics of the rifle are established, three-shot groups will provide adequate information for hunting loads. They always have for me, anyway.

I've meddled around, of course. In my pet '06 hunting rifle, I've had ten-shot strings of 1-1/8" at 100 yards, and six inches at 500 yards. Over three decades, three-shot groups were consistently at or below 3/4" at 100 yards. The occasional five-shot groups were mostly around 7/8".

Competition shooting at paper is a different deal, as near as I can tell. I've never done that.

[T. O'Heir]

"...for hunting or targets..." Assuming it's a bolt action, it's easier to keep track of a mag load. Most typical hunting rifles holding 4 rounds depending on the cartridge. However, 5 will give you a better idea of how well your rifle a shoots that particular load.
And a .30-06 hunting rifle does not need to shoot 1 MOA groups. Most won't anyway, but a consistent 2 or 3 inches at 100 is good.

[eastbank]

I want to know where the first shot goes with a cold clean barrel and where the first shot goes with a cold dirty barrel. the rifles I use for hunting big game must be right on with those shots and if the second and maybe a third shot goes with in a inch of the first shot, I,m happy as a clam. I,m not a large target shooter.

[Dufus]

Just as shooting over a chronograph, 3 shots don't get me where I need to be.

When developing a load, I shoot 6 shots.

If I think the load has merit, I shoot 10 shots for group and 10 shots over the chronograph (sometimes they are the same 10 shots, sometimes not). Of course this is after all other load parameters have been addressed, such as runout, seating depth (measured to the bullet ogive), etc.

Note that I always check my barrel temperature with a Fluke IR thermometer and I don't let the barrel get more than 10 degrees over ambient temperature.

All of my rifles are bolt action, lever action, and one semi. I follow the same protocol with each of them. That is the way I have done it for years.

My hunting rifles will drill a gnat's ass with proper care both with the loads and with the rifle care.

I realize that most folks have different methods, but these are mine.

[cw308]

I would shoot no less then a five shots to call a group , better 10 shot , you want to remove that luck factor. When trying different brands remember to clean out your barrel for every ammo brand change . Different brands foul the barrel differently . Good to try an find what your rifle likes .

[agtman]

Just as shooting over a chronograph, 3 shots don't get me where I need to be.
When developing a load, I shoot 6 shots.
If I think the load has merit, I shoot 10 shots for group and 10 shots over the chronograph (sometimes they are the same 10 shots, sometimes not). Of course this is after all other load parameters have been addressed, such as runout, seating depth (measured to the bullet ogive), etc.
Note that I always check my barrel temperature with a Fluke IR thermometer and I don't let the barrel get more than 10 degrees over ambient temperature.
All of my rifles are bolt action, lever action, and one semi. I follow the same protocol with each of them. That is the way I have done it for years.
My hunting rifles will drill a gnat's ass with proper care both with the loads and with the rifle care.
I realize that most folks have different methods, but these are mine.

That's a great vetting procedure! Well said.

[MTT TL]

Three, three shot groups to get zero, a six shot group to confirm and check the rifle. When shooting a rifle with limited capacity, I shoot to capacity.

[FrankenMauser]

I grew up shooting three-shot groups.
Once I started developing loads and testing factory ammo for myself, I encountered a few situations where I recognized that the three-shot groups were not representative of actual averages. Sticking with 3-shot groups and expecting them to tell me what was really going on with a load/rifle combination was just a trip down Ignorance Lane and into the land of the Texas Sharpshooter.

My standard now is a 5-shot group for load development, fine-tuning, etc. If I feel, for whatever reason, that 5 shots isn't enough, I'll shoot 10-shot groups.
But I might only shoot three shots (or less) to verify a rifle's zero with an established load.

On occasion, I do shoot what some people would view as 'extreme' groups: 20 shots, 50 shots, or more.
I also really like to look at composite groups, by overlaying multiple separate targets (possibly fired at completely different times) to increase the sample size.

It can be very enlightening to take a "one-hole" load that you only ever shoot 3-shot groups with, and increase the sample size by a factor of ten, or more. Anomalies and 'noise' in aggregated 3-shot, and even 5-shot, groups suddenly become clear patterns when the sample size is 20, 30, or even 50+ shots...



...I'm just an anal-retentive hunter that likes precise ammunition -- or, at the very least, knowing what, exactly, a particular load is going to do in a particular rifle. I don't shoot in competition, or even recreationally in any way that resembles competition shooting.

[Mobuck]

"Tyros, lazy shooters, and the overly cheap think 3-shots is 'good 'nough' to be called a 'group.'"

I've NEVER seen a good 5 shot group that didn't start out as a good 3 shot group.

[ninosdemente]

Thank you everyone for their input. Sure is much more than what I hoped for.

I was able to go to the range today and used the 30-06 and the .223. Was at the 50yd and did spend time adjusting the scope as it was way off on the 30-06 after the rings had become loose from previous range trip and I messed up the scope setting pretty bad (later to notice the rings had become loose). Took a bit to adjust the scope.

As well as for the .223 as the scope was adjusted for 20moa rail. I was using a 2 piece rail. That took less effort. Today I was not aiming at grouping as I was more trying to get a feel for the rifle as it was the first time I shot it and get my practice in.

I will post some pictures on the next post.

[ninosdemente]

Here are the targets from today.http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/21.jpg
This was the .223 rifle

http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/22.jpg
This is also from the .223. The center right (4 shots) are from the 30-06.

The remaining pictures are from .223.
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/23.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/24.jpg

After looking at these, it seems I did unconsciously was trying to "group" the shots. If that can be called grouping, lol. Well one thing is for sure, I have a lot of technique still to learn and far from being where I would like to be at.

The 30-06, after setting the scope I did end up setting it aside to let it cool off.

The .223 were using 3.5 boxes of Remington. Did not shoot the other brands mentioned. The ones I purchased range from $6-$9 a box. What other better ammo are out there? I have read the Sierra Matchking that came up a lot. Not buying that yet. Lol.

[MTT TL]

For a new gun there is nothing wrong with that. Most match ammo will give you better performance than Remington Green box.

[agtman]

"Tyros, lazy shooters, and the overly cheap think 3-shots is 'good 'nough' to be called a 'group.'"

I've NEVER seen a good 5 shot group that didn't start out as a good 3 shot group.

And I've seen sub-MOA 3-shot 'groups' become 1.5 MOA groups, or worse, when two more shots were added ... Yep, I've even watched myself do it.

Again, a 3-shot 'group' only minimally informs you that you've got a point-of-aim on paper, even if those 3 holes are nearly touching. You'll need additional shots to actually vet - in a reliable way - the accuracy of the ammo or the rifle, or both, for the reasons FrankenMauser just explained:

Once I started developing loads and testing factory ammo for myself, I encountered a few situations where I recognized that the three-shot groups were not representative of actual averages. Sticking with 3-shot groups and expecting them to tell me what was really going on with a load/rifle combination was just a trip down Ignorance Lane and into the land of the Texas Sharpshooter.

My standard now is a 5-shot group for load development, fine-tuning, etc. If I feel, for whatever reason, that 5 shots isn't enough, I'll shoot 10-shot groups.
But I might only shoot three shots (or less) to verify a rifle's zero with an established load.
* * *

It can be very enlightening to take a "one-hole" load that you only ever shoot 3-shot groups with, and increase the sample size by a factor of ten, or more. Anomalies and 'noise' in aggregated 3-shot, and even 5-shot, groups suddenly become clear patterns when the sample size is 20, 30, or even 50+ shots...

Totally agree. Well said.

[cw308]

If you get into target shooting , reloading your own is the way to go .