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Old June 22, 2018, 11:25 PM   #1
Dano4734
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Is viht n110 powder the same load as h110 in a casull

Are these powders the same. The sports store guy said yes but i don’t want to fire these 340 penn bullets under 26.1 grains of n110 without being sure

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Old June 23, 2018, 12:20 AM   #2
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No they are not the same. They should be close -- close enough that there should be Casull load data available for N110. I would not use H110 data.
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Old June 23, 2018, 12:33 AM   #3
Dano4734
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Thank you
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Old June 23, 2018, 01:27 AM   #4
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Found it looks like I am good however they have 26.6 as the starting load for 300 grains and I have 340 but should be ok I think
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Old June 23, 2018, 03:22 AM   #5
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Not the same.

And your assumption of 300 gr data being "okay" for 340 gr bullets is severely flawed. Data for heavier bullets is generally okay to use. Data for lighter bullets is generally bad.

Regardless of powder choice, follow standard reloading practice: Start low and work up.
Automatically jumping to a max load, or using lighter bullet data for a heavy bullet, is a great way to end up with a story that starts with your grandkids asking, "Grandpa, why do you only have three fingers on that hand?"....

A quick calculation in QuickLoad shows your 26.6 gr load under the Penn 340 to be at 89k psi. Even if QL is way off the mark with that prediction, it still indicates that you're not on the right track.
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Old June 23, 2018, 06:35 AM   #6
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FrankenMauser gave you GREAT advice. If you don't have the loading data from a reliable source (and the "guy at the store" is not a reliable source") get the data from the manufacturer either in an actual loading manual or a published source. The interchange of powder numbers such as Viht and Hodgdon is NOT A RELIABLE method of choosing powders. I have both Viht and Hodgdon in 110 and they don't even look alike. I"m sure their burning characteristics are different, and possible to a very significant degree. Medical, legal, and reloading advice can be quite unreliable if coming from anything like the internet or people who give you their best guess. Keep all ten finger and FranenMauser forgot to mention your two eyes. Good luck and be safe.
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Old June 23, 2018, 07:14 AM   #7
Dano4734
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Thank you for the great advice I will not even try them
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Old June 23, 2018, 07:24 AM   #8
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NO.

A reloading manual will go a long way toward answering your questions and provide suitable load recipes. Buy one if you don't have one already, and study it. The high pressure Casull is not a forgiving cartridge when it comes to mistakes.

Sorry for being a bit tart, but your question is disturbing on a couple of levels.
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Old June 23, 2018, 07:52 AM   #9
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Normally the bigger the bullet the less powder. Your big bullet is taking up more interior space. The smaller the interior space the more pressure that will be created by the powder charge. Like when you plane the heads on your car’s engine. Your compression ratio goes up. Hope this helps, always try to find a couple of sources when reloading if possible.
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Old June 23, 2018, 09:44 AM   #10
Russell P
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Check out this link. It may or may not be useful to you.


http://camdenrgc.com/reload/powderra...rate_chart.htm


Get a few manuals too. Its all in black and white and vivid color.
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Old June 23, 2018, 10:29 AM   #11
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankenMauser View Post
Automatically jumping to a max load, or using lighter bullet data for a heavy bullet, is a great way to end up with a story that starts with your grandkids asking, "Grandpa, why do you only have three fingers on that hand?"....
^^^NOW THAT'S FUNNY!!!

Lymann shows 22.7 under a 325gr Hardcast....so common sense tells me your 26.1 with a 340 charge is way over where you should be. Find a good reliable source and not "The sports store guy"
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Old June 23, 2018, 11:03 AM   #12
Dano4734
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Grandpa nearly blew up thank you for not letting me. Reminds me of a great John wayne quote, life is tough and it’s tougher if you’re stupid.
Well at least give me credit for asking lol

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Old June 23, 2018, 11:45 AM   #13
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Different burn rates. H110 is Number 62 on Hodgdon's chart. N110 is Number 60.
The camdenrgc chart has far more powders on it. N110 is still a bit faster burning.
So the guy in the store is confused.
26.4 grains of N110 is the start load for a plated 300 grain .454 Casull. (No 340's on Vihtavuori's site.) Like Frank says, 40 grains difference is far too much. Assuming the Vihtavuori site is where you got that 26.1 figure. Which is wrong in any case.
26.0 of H110 is the MAX load for a 335 grain CAST bullet according to Hodgdon's site. Five grains is close enough.
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Old June 23, 2018, 11:53 AM   #14
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As a long time reloader with little H110 (used some in the early '90s for 44 Mag. loads) and no Vihtavuori powder experience, here's what I'd do; I would find load data from both manufacturers and compare data with all the other components of your proposed load. Within 2% across the board? If not, no I would not cross reference data.

The gun counter clerk acting as a reloading expert is exactly the reason I have this rule for me and I suggest it to new reloaders; pay very little (no) attention to any forum expert, range rat, gun counter clerk, pet loads website, or gun shop guru for any load data. Powder and types suggestions are welcome, but when it comes to load data (powder charges, powder profiles) I rely on published reloading manuals, with data from the manufacturer if possible. This has worked quite well for over 30 years (I'll use a powder manufacturer's website on occasion, but 98% of the time it isn't necessary).
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Old June 23, 2018, 01:09 PM   #15
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DO NOT USE BURN RATE CHARTS TO DERIVE LOADOUTS ( ! )
Those charts tell you absolutely NOTHING about how a powder will react in a cartridge/under pressure/as that pressure changes.

It so happens that Vihtavuori N-110 is a totally different powder from H110/W296.

On the issue of similar "issued/published" burn rate:
See https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...#post-10858322

For H-110/W296 versus Vihtavouri N-110 specifically, see below:



CAUTION: The chart/post includes load data generated by calculation in QuickLOAD software based on a particular powder lot, the assumption the primer is as mild as possible, and assumptions about component, chamber and gun geometry that may not correspond well to what you have. Such data should be approached by working up from published starting loads. USE THIS DATA AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL, nor QuickLOAD's author nor its distributor assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information or information derived from it.


See also:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...#post-10408371



.

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Old June 23, 2018, 02:41 PM   #16
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mehavey View Post
DO NOT USE BURN RATE CHARTS TO DERIVE LOADOUTS ( ! )
Those charts tell you absolutely NOTHING about how a powder will react in a cartridge/under pressure/as that pressure changes.

It so happens that Vihtavuori N-110 is a totally different powder from H110/W296.
^^^I agree. Just a quick look thru various calibers and comparing load recipes, H110 generally shows a significantly heavier charge than N110 for similar bullets and velocities. This tells me that load recipes are not interchangeable.
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Old June 23, 2018, 04:52 PM   #17
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Just bought a bunch of new reloading books including the new Lyman not making that mistake as the Nosler I have didn’t have the bullet or powder except for one 250 grain and the power manufacturer website only had the 300 grain
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Old June 23, 2018, 06:29 PM   #18
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Good move on getting more manuals. You need several to do a sanity check once in a while.
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Old June 23, 2018, 07:35 PM   #19
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Burn rate charts can be helpful for finding powders that might appropriate for specific applications and has no relation to actual amounts of powder to use or load data.
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Old June 25, 2018, 10:32 AM   #20
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Also, burn rate charts are not linear. Powder 87 may be just a hair faster than powder 88, but the difference between 88 and 89 can be huge...
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Old June 25, 2018, 01:22 PM   #21
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Not just that, but burn rates are determined under standard conditions by a powder maker, who then estimates what his competition has. The data isn't openly shared. This is why two different burn rate charts often have things in different order. You can trust Hodgdon or Alliant or Western or Norma or any other powder maker to have the burn rates of their own powders in the right order, but not necessarily those made by other companies.

The other problem is that higher pressure and temperature make a powder burn faster than the standard test conditions do. Unfortunately, how much faster is not consistent among different powders. Some respond twice as much to a pressure change as some others in the same class do. For this reason, while a burn rate chart can suggest candidates to look into for a particular application, that's about as far as it goes. Also, because of the jumps in burn rate that are present in most simple order listing charts, I find the type that displays powders grouped by similar applications are more useful to look at and take a lot of the guesswork away.

An example is here.

Another good type is Western's. Rather than find a specific order and knowing some powders will overlap in some lots, they just have rows of names that are roughly the same. Lapua does the same, as does Pulver, GS Custom, and Powder Swiss, among others.

From a quick look in QuickLOAD, it appears N110 too bulky. The charge weights are about 13% lower, but often are highly compressed loads, nonetheless, as compared to H110.
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Old June 28, 2018, 09:59 AM   #22
Dano4734
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Talked to penn bullet people 26 grains of h110 is right for their 340 grain casull but not at all for viht n110 as you guys said. Vihtavuori said like you guys to back off 13 percent.so I will start lower like 20 grains work up to 22 no more
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Old June 28, 2018, 10:36 AM   #23
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When I looked in QuickLOAD, I noticed N110 has lower bulk density and that trying to cram enough into the case to copy an H110 charge weight wouldn't really anyway.
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Old June 28, 2018, 11:52 AM   #24
Dano4734
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I should move you know you can’t buy anything in nys try to find h110. I would have to drive 69 miles. This was all that was left that i could find. Likwise we cannot even buy rounds from the net anymore. Our ammunition has to go through an ffl dealer. Sigh
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Old June 28, 2018, 12:17 PM   #25
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I should move you know you can’t buy anything in nys try to find h110. I would have to drive 69 miles. This was all that was left that i could find. Likwise we cannot even buy rounds from the net anymore. Our ammunition has to go through an ffl dealer. Sigh
You can buy all the powder you want to buy even in New York. I buy it all the time and there are no restrictions on shipping powder, bullets, or primers to NY (maybe NYC, but fortunately they don't take up much territory). Many places will now ship ammo to residents in NYS now that there is some clarification to the Safe Act. Some won't, some will. I know of several places that will ship ammo, and they're really cheap places to buy from besides. TargetsportsUSA is one, and Outdoor Limited is another. Look around. I've had no problem getting ww296 or h110 here in NY.
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