Another A. Greener SxS from Belgium

archangel2003 · January 5, 2017, 05:03 PM

A. Greener was not the maker, but the gun says that on the side.
It also says Belgium so is a copy/fake, and the hammers are loose, but the barrels are tight to the action, the bores are clean and it's only missing 1 firing pin and it's holder.

Any day now the Illinois State Police will make their friggen call and it's coming home with me.

Any ideas where I can get a firing pin and holder?
How do I id the parts on/for this gun?
It's not a true Greener, but were they copied close enough that some of the parts might fit?

This is my first real Antique and I'm wondering if I should clean the hell out of it to make it look brand new, or try to add patina to the new parts and have it look as old as it is.

I ordered some all brass 12 Gauge shells as I assume the Damascus steel barrels imply that it should only be limited to black powder rounds and will ID those rounds by the brass.

FITASC · January 5, 2017, 06:02 PM

Perhaps the Greener you are thinking about is WW Greener from England? Belgium guild guns were made frequently with a name that was "close" to the famous one they were copying.

dreaming · January 8, 2017, 12:50 PM

If correct, I don't know but see this:

Quote:

Need more Info: look on the centre rib to one side for a name William Greener or Albert Greener..Date of Mfg...CIRCA 1885+/-..12ga W/28"DEM/Bbl.in the Condition you say $175 to $300..a S# would help?
One in VG/Con $1,000 to $1,800
William Greener Sr. Had Four sons, William Jr and Albert thay are all gun makers in England.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/answer...rbarrel-belgiu

Per this earlier thread from TFL, it is likely still a fake but look for Belgium proof marks. https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=355772 You say it is Belgium made.

T. O'Heir · January 8, 2017, 01:03 PM

Prior to W.W. I there were literally hundreds of small shops around Liege making firearms. Most of 'em are very low end and there are no parts. Mind you, it should also have Belgian proof marks all over it. That does not mean it's safe to shoot with modern BP.
This might help.
http://gerardcox.blogspot.ca/2014/06...oof-marks.html
"...Damascus steel barrels imply..." Damascus barrels are considered unsafe to shoot with any ammo. Despite what you see on-line. Has to do with the salts from the BP getting into the wee cracks and fissures in the barrel and causing rust. It's not if the thing will let go, but when.

dreaming · January 8, 2017, 01:09 PM

who was a gun maker, per a purported e-mail from who seems to be a member of the Greener family.

Quote:

I just received an email from Graham N. Greener in regards to my inquiry. He said that Albert was the younger brother of WW Greener and made firearms but was not part of the company. Also that all were handmade so impossible to find parts for. Interesting piece though. Does anyone have any idea about valuation of this since it is not in any bokks??? Thanks! Dan
Email from Greener Company follows:

Albert Greener was a younger brother of W W Greener. We know very little about Albert, he made some guns but he was not part of the W W Greener company as such. Most of the guns made by Albert Greener that we have seen are medium or lower grade, breech loading hammer guns. At the time he made guns all were hand made, so spare parts as do not exist. Missing parts have to be made to fit and today this is very expensive due to the high cost of skilled craftsmen. Unless the gun is a best model it is usually
uneconomical to repair. I attach some notes which I hope you will find useful.
Best regards
Graham N. Greener

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=73509

FITASC · January 8, 2017, 03:36 PM

Except the OP states a A. Greener from Belgium, not England

dreaming · January 8, 2017, 05:37 PM

I never said there was an A. or Albert Greener making shotguns in Belgium. If the gun was made in Belgium it is likely a knock off whether made by the son or the brother. That is why I wrote to look for Belgium proof marks. He said it is Belgium made.

James K · January 9, 2017, 10:49 PM

Cheap Belgian shotguns were imported into the US literally by the ton in the period from c. 1880 to WWI. Many were marked with an approximation of the name of a well known British gun maker. Greener (or something similar) with some initial was common, as were the names (or variations) of Jeffreys, Adams, Bland, Holland, and Tranter. While Belgian makers were capable of turning out some fine guns, the ones made for export to America and Africa were the dregs, at best poorly made and fitted, at worst positively dangerous.

Note that as a large market with no national proof laws, the U.S. was inundated with such junk. Since almost all that importing took place before the Belgians began to use drilled barrels, so barrels were almost universally of some form of "Damascus" twist, a manufacturing method adequate for low pressure barrels if well done, but those Belgian barrels were seldom well done, and they blew out, especially as time, deterioration and smokeless powder combined to take the inevitable toll.

The best thing that can be done with those guns is to deactivate them permanently or simply destroy them; they have no value as guns, but can be interesting decorations. (One restaurant chain uses many welded up old shotguns as decoration in an attempt to give a "Western" look to its dining area.)

Jim

January 5, 2017, 05:03 PM	#1
archangel2003 Member Join Date: June 30, 2013 Posts: 38	Another A. Greener SxS from Belgium A. Greener was not the maker, but the gun says that on the side. It also says Belgium so is a copy/fake, and the hammers are loose, but the barrels are tight to the action, the bores are clean and it's only missing 1 firing pin and it's holder. Any day now the Illinois State Police will make their friggen call and it's coming home with me. Any ideas where I can get a firing pin and holder? How do I id the parts on/for this gun? It's not a true Greener, but were they copied close enough that some of the parts might fit? This is my first real Antique and I'm wondering if I should clean the hell out of it to make it look brand new, or try to add patina to the new parts and have it look as old as it is. I ordered some all brass 12 Gauge shells as I assume the Damascus steel barrels imply that it should only be limited to black powder rounds and will ID those rounds by the brass.

January 5, 2017, 06:02 PM	#2
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	Perhaps the Greener you are thinking about is WW Greener from England? Belgium guild guns were made frequently with a name that was "close" to the famous one they were copying. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

January 8, 2017, 01:03 PM	#4
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Prior to W.W. I there were literally hundreds of small shops around Liege making firearms. Most of 'em are very low end and there are no parts. Mind you, it should also have Belgian proof marks all over it. That does not mean it's safe to shoot with modern BP. This might help. http://gerardcox.blogspot.ca/2014/06...oof-marks.html "...Damascus steel barrels imply..." Damascus barrels are considered unsafe to shoot with any ammo. Despite what you see on-line. Has to do with the salts from the BP getting into the wee cracks and fissures in the barrel and causing rust. It's not if the thing will let go, but when. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 8, 2017, 03:36 PM	#6
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	Except the OP states a A. Greener from Belgium, not England __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

January 8, 2017, 05:37 PM	#7
dreaming Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2016 Posts: 186	I never said there was an A. or Albert Greener making shotguns in Belgium. If the gun was made in Belgium it is likely a knock off whether made by the son or the brother. That is why I wrote to look for Belgium proof marks. He said it is Belgium made.

January 9, 2017, 10:49 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Cheap Belgian shotguns were imported into the US literally by the ton in the period from c. 1880 to WWI. Many were marked with an approximation of the name of a well known British gun maker. Greener (or something similar) with some initial was common, as were the names (or variations) of Jeffreys, Adams, Bland, Holland, and Tranter. While Belgian makers were capable of turning out some fine guns, the ones made for export to America and Africa were the dregs, at best poorly made and fitted, at worst positively dangerous. Note that as a large market with no national proof laws, the U.S. was inundated with such junk. Since almost all that importing took place before the Belgians began to use drilled barrels, so barrels were almost universally of some form of "Damascus" twist, a manufacturing method adequate for low pressure barrels if well done, but those Belgian barrels were seldom well done, and they blew out, especially as time, deterioration and smokeless powder combined to take the inevitable toll. The best thing that can be done with those guns is to deactivate them permanently or simply destroy them; they have no value as guns, but can be interesting decorations. (One restaurant chain uses many welded up old shotguns as decoration in an attempt to give a "Western" look to its dining area.) Jim