Blackhawk Serpa Holster = Negligent Discharge?

[Jim March]

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...-Them-In-Class

Yet another weird failure I wasn't aware of:

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...ighlight=serpa

Comments from other instructors (again: forget the part Gabe Suarez writes...)

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...242-More-Serpa

Here's a Fobus in full fail mode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDeKtgkZKmQ

I'm done arguing.

For anybody able to listen: a plastic OWB non-concealed rig is a bad idea unless the belt connections are rock solid - and NONE that have adjustable tilt angles are solid, period, end of discussion.

(This does NOT apply to the IWB rigs - esp. the "hybrid" leather plate with a kydex half-holster bolted to it like the Crossbreed Supertuck - those rock, esp. when used in a deep-cover role. Try and open-carry with 'em in the "strongside kidney area" and they're a grab magnet from hell - but that's just mis-use of an otherwise good design. If it's covered, the need to go for the shirt first will give you enough warning to elbow-to-the-face a grabber.)

If you're going to do OWB concealed or plain old open carry, run leather. It can't be ripped off. Don't want it grabbed from behind? Carry high-ride, *ahead* of your waist, either appendix carry forward tilt or high-ride forward crossdraw. The latter is easy to "cover" with your off-hand forearm in a fashion that doesn't look threatening, if you're in a crowd. It also offers very fast off-hand-access. Situational awareness is required. The Serpas and the like are being bought by people who think it's a partial substitute for situational awareness and sorry but that's a massive mistake right there!

[kxkid]

Oh and if used properly you don't curl your finger into the trigger. As someone else said you use the whole finger not the tip. If used properly it is a safer and faster draw than almost any other holster out there.

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[Jim March]

Go back to the video at the start of this thread. Go to the slo-mo section. His finger WAS straight. But in trying to "go fast", he applied more muscle and ended up with enough curl to crank one off in his damn leg.

[kxkid]

Like others have said its poor training on his part. I have practiced the same drill he was trying several times with my duty holster and tried to pull it out before I released the serpa just like him and have never had a issue, same went for my coworkers. The only flaw I see is the fact of a tiny rock getting stuck behind it. But that is not a real big issue in the newer holsters. There has been some redesign in them from the original and you will be surprised at the difference.

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[Norrick]

Couldn't this have been avoided by keeping his finger off the trigger until it was pointed down range? Or does defensive shooting technique call for placing your finger on the trigger and disengaging safety when pointed downrange afterwards???

I can see the holster having a large role in how this happened but I don't think you can blame it on the holster.

Very lucky he shot himself in the leg, can you imagine the gun pointing ever so slightly inward and going through his kidney or pelvis region.

[Don Glock]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAx...&feature=feedu



thoughts?.......

[Eagle Eye]

The guy was careless. The idea that we have to be a fast draw is ludicrous and dangerous.

This ain't Dodge City and he ain't Wyat Earp.

......just my thoughts.

[smince]

The idea that we have to be a fast draw is ludicrous and dangerous.

Yeah, you will never need to fast-draw...

...until you do...

...then you will need it really bad...

[Homerboy]

Good video. It CAN happen to anybody! Experienced shooters are no more exempt from ND's than professional racecar drivers are from car accidents. Somebody will come along and say the guy was careless. I say he was human. He was practicing a legitimate draw technique using a quality holster, something that you see in the gun rags and on gunshows on TV. It DOES seem that the location of the 1911 safety and the 511 thumblock holster are a BAD combination. I like the Serpa holsters alot. This guy should stick with one holster system.

[Nitesites]

Oh man, that hurts just watching it! At least the guy decided to stay up and up about it...+1 for him.

[Mike Irwin]

Multiple threads merged, original post no longer valid.

[Rugerismisticness]

I think his knee was farther than the target was Fingers out of the trigger gaurd

[shortwave]

Thanks for not closing Mike.

Also, Kudo's to the OP for sharing this film, knowing some will criticize rather than learn.

[warwagon]

Most of us are familiar with, and try very hard to practice safe handling, and techniques, but it just goes to show that one instance of inattention can lead to disaster.

Sometimes something such as this video can serve to remind all of us just how quickly these things can happen, and maybe plant that little bug of extra caution in our minds that may sharpen our awareness, and prevent future accidents.

[Marquezj16]

I also practice drawing from my different holsters with different pistols. You have to know how to use your equipment. I start out real slow with an empty chamber and do it over and over and over again. The one thing that comes to mind is never go for the trigger until you have cleared the holster, the ground in front of you and have the pistol pointing in front of your body.

He was indeed very lucky. Looks like the bullet travelled along side his femur. Could have easily gone though, and puncture his artery. He would not be making this video if that had happened.

[Kreyzhorse]

Good video. Bad outcome. Can certainly happen to any one and a good reminder to us all.

[shurshot]

This Texan has a set of BIG Brass Balls for being honest and trying to share with others his mistake, instead of getting a lawyer and blaming the gun/holster. S#*T happens, and he acted as a real man and is warning others to be cautious. I would rather go plinking with him than a few of the people in Law Enforcement I know (and unfortunatly have to qualify with 2x a year), who act like cowboys on the range. At least he understands that we play with fire (and are therefore subject to burns), and are not living in an HBO movie.

Thanks for the warning Tex!

[AK103K]

I dont have a serpa, nor do I have any experience with them, so this is a just conjecture, but it seems that it puts similar finger movements, with added pressure, in the same vicinity and direction during the draw.

It looks like he might have kept the same pressure needed to release the gun, on the holster after release, up to and into the trigger as he drew.

Looks like an accumulating combination of unfortunate choices and decisions on his part. A good reinforcing lesson for the rest of us.

[redstategunnut]

I do not understand civilians using retention holsters.

This could have happened with any holster, of course, but the retention holsters just seem to increase the chances of this with no particular use to the civilian, particularly those of us who carry concealed.

[Carry_24/7]

Him putting his finger on the trigger during draw is a training problem, not a holster problem. I too am happy he shared, and he's ok.

[BlueTrain]

The video won't play on my computer, so I can't comment on what I didn't see there. However, one simple reason for having any kind of retention device on your holster is to keep from losing your pistol. That can happen if you're in certain positions or are doing something very active.

[AirForceShooter]

Be slow in a hurry.

I'll give him props for putting it out there.


AFS

[redstategunnut]

However, one simple reason for having any kind of retention device on your holster is to keep from losing your pistol. That can happen if you're in certain positions or are doing something very active.

Yes, that's why I have well-made kydex and leather holsters that are specific to the gun in the holster. I'm not talking about crap Uncle Mike's stuff. I've never had a gun "fall out" of a quality holster. The retention devices (thumb drive, Serpa, etc) are to prevent someone else from getting your gun out of your holster in a scuffle. I repeat: they are more risk than reward for a civilian concealed carry scenario.

[Hog Hunter]

WOW!! It hurt to watch that. I practice quick draw all the time with 2 shots at a time and shoot a glock wit no safety. Also out of a serpa holster with the release on the outside. Dont like the idea of the thumb release.

My leg is tellin me to quit doin that!!

[Smaug]

Mike Irwin: Why? Because it is posted in the General Handguns forum, or some other reason? Just curious.

I agree, it needs to be seen.