June 4, 2009, 09:23 PM | #51 |
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Attn: Old Marksman
:barf: Of course you are trying to sound like an attorney and make good points from your your comments, (on what I should do if someone broke into MY home).
However, (at the time I discover a stranger in my home in the middle of the night) I'm really not too interested in the Florida Statues, presumption of guilt, statutory interpertations, and especially your last statement: "The intruder has rights under the law"???? :barf: What the hell about me and my family's rights? Don't we have rights? Of course, I would hope they would leave before having to shoot someone but that may not happen (before I decide to protect myself, family and possessions). People who make comments like you just made: I really wonder what YOU would personally do, if someone actually broke in your home in the middle of the night, (brew them a pot of coffee)? Hmmmn, YES I WOULD PROBABLY STILL SHOOT THEM if I felt threatened and I felt the situation had crossed the line. I'm not that concerned (at that particular time) about legal eagle advice (as it is my butt on the line and not yours). As my best friend (a police officer) told me years ago, "anyone who breaks into your home in the middle of the night, is there for one of three reasons". 1. To rob you 2. To hurt/rape you 3. Maybe both! Think about it......... |
June 4, 2009, 09:58 PM | #52 | |
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I would rather not shoot anybody, but if I had to I would. I would stay away from any situation that could put me in a situation where I violated the law. I wouldn't want my daughter growing up knowing mommy's in prison. I wouldn't be kind or polite to the intruder, but I also wouldn't want to put myself in a bad situation where I can end up being prosecuted. |
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June 4, 2009, 10:06 PM | #53 | |
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I don't have the continuum available at home so I can't give chapter and verse. That said, handcuffing someone who doesn't want to be is a PITA and needs at least a couple of Coppers. I would not advise taking prisoners---If they want to leave let em. Be ruthless in your defense but know when to stand down. |
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June 4, 2009, 10:13 PM | #54 |
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Chemgirlie: PLEASE!
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I understand what you are trying to say and surely, nobody wants to take someone's life (for any reason). However, what is your little girl going to do, (if something was to happen to you when a bad guy breaks in your home one night)? While you are trying to make sure his "rights" are not violated, he may sure as hell have other ideas, (I'm sure he has other ideas and it won't be about your rights, or he would not have broken in your home). In my personal opinion, when a dirt bag like that physically breaks in your home, he loses his rights once he is inside your residence. There is not a lot of time to try and figure it all out. You should be armed and ready to defend yourself and your family. Hopefully that does not ever happen (I hope you don't) but it pays to be careful and prepared. Live another day and let the authorities figure the rest of it out. This is not a business or street corner we are talking about here: IT IS YOUR HOME and that is your castle in my book. |
June 4, 2009, 10:32 PM | #55 | |
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I would absolutely defend myself, and I wouldn't have a problem shooting somebody in defense. Assuming the BG is in a situation where he's no longer a threat (on the floor looking at the carpet with hands on head) I won't be approaching him or getting any closer than I need to.
Unfortunately this day in age we have to make sure we cover our collective tushes from litigation. I'd rather just stand there and wait for the LEOs to arrest the BG properly, as I have zero experience doing so on somebody who will cooperate, let alone somebody who has intentions of hurting me. Quote:
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June 4, 2009, 10:35 PM | #56 | |||||||
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So, one or more people break in unlawfully and with force. You do not have to retreat, and you do not have to come up with any evidence other than the fact of the break in as a basis for a reasonable belief that you are in imminent danger. You can shoot if you have to. You are shooting to protect yourself and your family, and not to execute them for breaking into your home. But should the evildoers suddenly become wiser, less courageous, or kinder or gentler and choose to depart, any evidence to that effect would paint an entirely different picture. The risk there, in a home invasion situation, lies most probably in forensic evidence, in any inconsistency in your story over time, or in other testimony that you didn't expect. Best to let the wheels of justice grind on them rather than on you, when that happens. |
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June 4, 2009, 11:08 PM | #57 |
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outside the box
thinking outside the box:
dont go near BG throw the handcuffs to BG from a safe distance(while covering with weapon) tell BG to cuff himself (preferably to some heavy unmovable object) 1. if he does it your a little safer 2. if he doesnt do it....so what... he is still covered 3. he handcuffed himself so you are less liable |
June 5, 2009, 12:14 AM | #58 | |
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I'm with those who say forget handcuffing anyone if you can avoid it. I have the training, I've done it alone and with several others helping. If they resist, it's a royal PITA. If they resist with determination, people usually get hurt (mostly them in the long run).
If you want to buy a set of handcuffs for whatever reason, buy the S&W's or Peerless brands. Just keep in mind they don't fit tiny wrists or really huge ones either. Inside your home you're unlikely to face "false imprisonment" charges if your state authorizes citizens to stop crimes from being committed in their presence. Still, getting close enough to handcuff someone isn't a good idea. If the intruder capitulates at gunpoint, the decision is yours whether he leaves or stays. That decision may be based on various factors, including how far away he is from a door. If he's halfway through the house, I'm not marching him to the door. Quote:
There is sufficient light in my home, even at night, that if he looks in my direction he will know that I'm armed, pointing a gun at him and partially behind a barricade. If he turns away and is not heading towards an exit, I can say stop in about 8 languages. I can certainly articulate a logical chain of thought that indicates an increased danger at that point. But I'll let my lawyer do the arguing. ¹ Roughly: Do not move. Hands up, dead man.
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June 5, 2009, 12:32 AM | #59 | |
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We're missing something here...
Just so we're all clear, if a person you don't recognize is in your house at a strange hour and is armed you shoot first ask questions (or give orders) later, right?
I can understand yelling at an unarmed man (who I am 99.99% sure is unarmed) because nobody (or at least I hope nobody) wants to kill someone they don't have to. But if it isn't clear that he's unarmed or he is clearly armed I am pulling the trigger, then thinking about handcuffs (or probably not) and etc. Quote:
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June 5, 2009, 01:01 AM | #60 | |
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June 5, 2009, 02:38 AM | #61 |
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How do you know that someone is a felon ?
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June 5, 2009, 07:30 AM | #62 |
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I am not concerned if they are a felon... short of a not guilty or plea down they will be a felon after committing a felony against me...
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June 5, 2009, 07:52 AM | #63 |
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Everyone: please take a moment to read through a couple of articles.
The first: www.useofforce.us The second: www.corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx If you prefer to learn things in dead-tree format, take a look at Massad Ayoob's classic book, In the Gravest Extreme. And if you have the money and time to do so, take an LFI-1 class from him or at least the JUDF portion of that class. Or surf over to www.armedcitizensnetwork.org and read through the back issues of their e-Journal, then join up and receive three excellent educational CDs explaining how to stay on the good side of the law when defending your life and the lives of your loved ones. There's an incredible number of folks posting here who are misinformed or simply uninformed about the laws that govern the legal use of lethal force in the United States. Please, for your own sakes -- do your homework. The life you save might be your own. pax |
June 5, 2009, 08:21 AM | #64 |
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HogDogs....post #48
Don't forget, before you cuff mrs HD, you will have to thuroughly frisk her first , then you can cuff her
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June 5, 2009, 08:21 AM | #65 |
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Okay, Old Marksman:
You say that this has happened to you three times???
Then you of all people should understand what I am saying. You must live in Florida too as you keep referring to Florida statutes. I really am only concerned about two things in my life when someone breaks into my home: 1. Protecting me 2. Protecting my family That's it, period. I don't believe there is a jury in this state who would convict me for having to shoot a bad guy for putting my family at risk in the middle of the night. That is the bad guy's decision and my reaction to his decision. In Florida, you home is your castle and if the bad guy decides to leave (before any gunfire) that is great. If he decides to surrender and lay down (until the police arrive), that is great. I sure a heck do not want to take someone's life. However, my primary job is to protect my family and I am not too worried about violating the dirt bag's rights, etc. We are living in the wrong country and/or wrong century if I would be sent to prision for defending my life and my family's life. I think that you "think" too much about the bad guy and what could possibly happen to you as a result of taking him out. This could cause you big problems one day (and I sure hope that never happens to you or your family). Your rights are being violated by someone breaking in your home. Your life is being put to the test! You personally, do NOT know what the criminal mind will decide to do (if they are caught by you). Not good.... Tell ya what: "You do what you think is best and I will do what I think is best and the chips will fall where they may"...... |
June 5, 2009, 09:04 AM | #66 | ||
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Be sure to know and understand your own state's laws. In any shooting event, at home or in public, you had best be able to articulate (to your attorney at least) what it was that put you in fear for your life. This will be especially true if the deceased was unarmed and/or was weighed down by excessive lead deposits.
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June 5, 2009, 09:12 AM | #67 | ||||||
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To the extent that the above describes your thoughts, we are in complete agreement. Quote:
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That's what I mean when I say that the intruder has rights under the law. You may defend against him and he may die, but beyond that, it's up to the justice system to administer justice to him. Should a citizen engage in that course of activity and should the evidence so indicate, he won't be a lot of use to his family in terms of providing for them or protecting them afterwards. He will have become the criminal. The most obvious example that comes to mind is that of the pharmacist in Oklahoma. We don't know all of the facts, but it appears that he shot a crook when he didn't have to. The original question was about whether to use handcuffs. People who know how to use them have advised against it. My comment was that I will not, under any circumstances I can think of, ever involve myself in a citizen's arrest, nor would I ever consider using deadly force against a fleeing suspect. I can tell an assailant in the house to stop advancing, and if he does not comply, blam, if I have to. But if I command someone to lie down, stand still, turn around, etc. I have absolutely no way of making him do so. Beyond the obvious criminal and civil risks, and the risks of a negligent discharge, there are the risks that one of them might get the upper hand, that while I'm waiting the driver or another participant may come around to see what's taking so long and use his gun on me, and that someone else--peace officer or passer by--may see me pointing a gun at someone and shoot me. No, I want 'em gone. I'm perfectly content to have them leave and let the long arm of the law chase them down. Who knows--could be I won't even have to testify. It has occurred to me that a stationary digital camera activated by a switch might provide something additional for the police and prosecutors. Take a look at the material Pax posted. By the way, I live in Missouri. The OP lives in Florida, as do you. Our laws read differently, but I am advised that the intent is the essentially same regarding home invasions. Last edited by OldMarksman; June 5, 2009 at 10:55 AM. Reason: Typo |
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June 5, 2009, 09:32 AM | #68 | |
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Really, folks, let the BG go away. There isn't any reason to keep him around, and as any LEO will tell you a good general rule is that the longer you try to keep someone under control the more dangerous they get. |
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June 5, 2009, 09:45 AM | #69 | ||
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June 5, 2009, 09:51 AM | #70 | |
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June 5, 2009, 10:24 AM | #71 |
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Just cover the guy and let someone else make the phone call. No worries about a lawsuit cause you A) didn't shoot him and B) didn't handcuff and supposedly "unlawfully imprison" him. Save the handcuffs for someone who will enjoy being in them .
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June 5, 2009, 11:04 AM | #72 |
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What is the record for most consecutive posts by one user? Just wondering...
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June 5, 2009, 11:07 AM | #73 |
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I am sure a bunch... But often times consecutive posts are due to deletes by mods...
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June 5, 2009, 11:29 AM | #74 |
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I sometimes post consecutively when I am replying to different posts.
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June 5, 2009, 11:34 AM | #75 |
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Anyone other than a sworn officer who attempts to handcuff someone deserves to leave the scene in considerably worse condition than when he arrived.
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