Short barrel .357s

[BlueTrain]

Well, I've got two questions that I don't think have been mentioned here yet.

First, have any of you experimenters noticed the same degree of shot-to-shot variation with automatics, which have no gap? And on the same subject, does barrel length of an automatic seem to affect variation in measured velocities, all other things being equal?

Second, does factory ammunition for .357 and 9mm Luger ever use the same bullets?

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by Hal

Quote:
Guess what, the Colt Python and S&W 686 in the test were both running lots of high extreme spreads. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those guns have cylinder gaps that are excessive or at least on the high side of normal.

& that negates the results how?
You're talking nonsense now and grasping at straws.
How can you dismiss real world results?

The point is that because two specific guns display high extreme spreads, that does not make the phenomenon common. As I noted in a previous post, high extreme spreads are often indicative of an anomaly with a particular gun or ammunition. Two guns does not a large enough sample for something to be declared "common" make. If extreme spreads of 100fps or more were as common as you suggest, then why did we see only one extreme spread of over 100fps in all of the .357 Magnum chronograph tests from Hi Powers and Handguns and no extreme spreads of over 100fps from any .357 Magnum loads tested by BBTI in any of the .357 Magnum guns except the S&W 586 and Colt Python?

Actually - I'm having quite a bit of difficulty even reading what your posting to be perfectly honest.
You keep trying to put words in my mouth & say things that I never said..

Quote:
Please refer to my previous post. A K-Frame is one of the larger .357 snubs made. Most of the people looking at .357 Snubs these days are looking at small frame guns like a S&W J-Frame, Ruger SP101, Ruger LCR, or Taurus 605/650/651 all of which are smaller than a Browning Hi Power. You're cherry picking one of the larger .357 Snubs while ignoring the smaller and more common ones. If you want to look at full size autos, then let's consider the following: a Beretta 92 FS with a 4.9" barrel is 8.5" long while a S&W M67 (same size as a K-Frame Magnum) is 8.88" long. In comparing velocities of those sorts of guns, we find on BBTI's data that all the 125gr .357 Magnum loads broke 1400fps from the 4" revolver barrel but none of the 124-125gr 9mm loads could break 1300fps from the 4.9" Beretta's barrel.

#1 - I didn't, as you claim, *cherry pick* anything.
I had a model 66 snub in my hands.
I'd just finished cleaning my Hi Power and it was laying on the table.
I layed the 66 on top of the Hi Power and discovered they were the same size.
That was the last straw for the 66 as far as I was concerned.

How is that cherry picking?

In a previous post, you stated this:

Please refer to my first post...
I made the comment that I placed the Hi Power right down on top of the model 66 - and guess what???
They were nearly the same exact size.

Nope - I''m making a 100% fair comparison there.
If two guns are the same size and weight, where's the difference?

A snub nose K frame is a pretty hefty piece.
The small grips tht S&W has can reduce the size a litte - but - not by a whole lot.

And before that, you said this:

I fail to see any significant difference between a 124 gr 9mm out of a Browning Hi Power or any 125 gr . 357 out of a 3" or less snub.

So, follow me here:

You state or at least infer that, because a 125gr .357 Magnum from a <3" barrel has similar ballistics to a 9mm from a >4" barrel (no argument on that point if you're talking a 9mm +P or +P+) and your M66 is roughly the same size as a full-size 9mm, in this case a Browning Hi-Power, that the .357 snub has no advantage over the full-size 9mm.

I responded to this by pointing out that many, if not most, .357 Magnum snubs are substantially smaller than your M66 was, and thus are also smaller than your Hi-Power, so the .357 snub does have a size advantage over a full-size 9mm. I also pointed out that in order to get a 9mm the same size as a small-frame .357 snub, you have to go to a compact or subcompact model with a barrel of 3-3.5" which will, in turn, produce lower velocity than either the .357 Magnum snub or the full-size 9mm.

To that, you replied that your comparison was "100% fair" and completely ignored the fact that there are many .357 snubs available which are much smaller than your M66 but still produce similar velocity.

By choosing to compare only one of the larger .357 snubs even though I pointed out that there are many smaller .357 revolvers available, you've cherry picked the guns being compared in an attempt to negate the size advantage that a .357 snub can offer over a 9mm that delivers similar ballistics.

As I pointed out before, the S&W Model 60 with a 2 1/8" barrel has an overall length of 6.56". That's a fairly reasonable representative gun for a small-frame .357 snub as it's neither the largest nor the smallest available. Now, there is no 9mm semi-auto pistol currently made by S&W, Ruger, Glock, Beretta, CZ, Sig, HK, Browning or any other manufacturer that I am aware of that has both a barrel longer than 4" and an overall length of less than 7". So, in order to get a 9mm semi-automatic pistol that is the same size or smaller than a S&W Model 60 with a 2 1/8" barrel, you will have to get one with a barrel shorter than 4" which will reduce the muzzle velocity of a 124gr bullet to less that that of a full-power 125gr bullet from the M60. Therefore, the S&W M60 has an advantage of either size or power over a 9mm semi-automatic depending on which compromise you choose to make with the auto.

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by Blue Train

First, have any of you experimenters noticed the same degree of shot-to-shot variation with automatics, which have no gap? And on the same subject, does barrel length of an automatic seem to affect variation in measured velocities, all other things being equal?

One thing which can cause high extreme spreads in a semi-automatic is a weak recoil spring. If the recoil spring is weak, the slide may open a bit prematurely and allow more propellant gas than usual to escape out the breach rather than propel the bullet (a small amount of gas leakage from the breach is normal and unavoidable). Buffalo Bore actually has data specifically about this on their website regarding their 10mm ammunition. Tim Sundles states that installing a heavier recoil spring when shooting his 10mm ammo dropped the extreme spreads in one gun from 70fps to 35fps and from 100fps to 50fps in another.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=114

Second, does factory ammunition for .357 and 9mm Luger ever use the same bullets?

While they may use bullets of the same design, they are not exactly the same as .38 Special and .357 Magnum normally use .357" jacketed bullets while .380 Auto, 9mm Parabellum, .38 Super, and .357 Sig normally use .355" jacketed bullets, in both calibers, cast bullets may be 1-2 thousands larger than jacketed. To my knowledge, however, Speer Gold Dots are the only commonly available JHP bullets which have significant design differences between one caliber and another. With most other bullets like Remington Golden Saber, Winchester Silvertip, Hornady XTP, and Federal Hydra-Shok, a .357 Magnum and 9mm driving the same bullet design of the same weight at the same velocity can be expected to perform very similarly to each other.

[Hal]

I responded to this by pointing out that many, if not most, .357 Magnum snubs are substantially smaller than your M66 was, and thus are also smaller than your Hi-Power, so the .357 snub does have a size advantage over a full-size 9mm. I also pointed out that in order to get a 9mm the same size as a small-frame .357 snub, you have to go to a compact or subcompact model with a barrel of 3-3.5" which will, in turn, produce lower velocity than either the .357 Magnum snub or the full-size 9mm.

To that, you replied that your comparison was "100% fair" and completely ignored the fact that there are many .357 snubs available which are much smaller than your M66 but still produce similar velocity.

I ignored the small frames for, from my perspective, a very valid reason.
I neither have nor would own one,,,period..
I dry fired a J frame once and put it back on the counter. Buying it would have been a total waste of money.
All the positives of a J frame disappear when you have to change you finger position mid trigger pull...

I would also not at this stage of my life buy or own a Ruger D/A.
The Ruger trigger is all wrong for me.
Same with Taurus, Colt,,,,,you name it...
Including BTW, a K-frame Smith w/a round butt.

Far and away accuracy is my strong point.
That's one area where I will accept no compromise.

As for the wuestion of how much difference there is between a Jframe (or some other small "pocket .357) and a compact or sub compact 9mm,,,,,I really have no desire or need to invetigate it.
It's a 100% meaningless and useless waste of my time.
If it's something you wish to chase down, knock yourself out - or don't - it's 100% up to you.

[nikkoo]

I use to carry a S&W 640 all the time

[45_auto]

All the positives of a J frame disappear when you have to change you finger position mid trigger pull...

Maybe you should learn how to pull a trigger ....

[Webleymkv]

Quote:
I responded to this by pointing out that many, if not most, .357 Magnum snubs are substantially smaller than your M66 was, and thus are also smaller than your Hi-Power, so the .357 snub does have a size advantage over a full-size 9mm. I also pointed out that in order to get a 9mm the same size as a small-frame .357 snub, you have to go to a compact or subcompact model with a barrel of 3-3.5" which will, in turn, produce lower velocity than either the .357 Magnum snub or the full-size 9mm.

To that, you replied that your comparison was "100% fair" and completely ignored the fact that there are many .357 snubs available which are much smaller than your M66 but still produce similar velocity.

I ignored the small frames for, from my perspective, a very valid reason.
I neither have nor would own one,,,period..
I dry fired a J frame once and put it back on the counter. Buying it would have been a total waste of money.
All the positives of a J frame disappear when you have to change you finger position mid trigger pull...

I would also not at this stage of my life buy or own a Ruger D/A.
The Ruger trigger is all wrong for me.
Same with Taurus, Colt,,,,,you name it...
Including BTW, a K-frame Smith w/a round butt.

And so we finally reach the crux of the issue. It sounds as though the issue, when we get right down to it, is that you have problems with DA revolver triggers. That's fine, you should certainly use whatever works best for you, but please realize that DA revolvers, including small frames, can and do work for a lot of other people. Just because something doesn't work for you, that does not mean it won't work or has no advantage to someone else.

[Hal]

And so we finally reach the crux of the issue. It sounds as though the issue, when we get right down to it, is that you have problems with DA revolver triggers.

As a matter of fact - yes -I do have ,not problems per say, but, a definite and pronounced preference for the D/A pull of a S&W K frame....espcially the square butt w/the stock over sized target grips.
The model 66 - which I spoke of in my original post & the gun by which I made the comparison with, was both stainless steel and had the round butt frame - two strikes against it right out of the gate.
I was willing to overlook the stainless steel aspect as a compromise between my preference for carbon steel vs something that would be more suitable for every day carry.
(& yes - I do have several other stainless steel guns - I just don't care for stainless - same with "Tupperware" - I have a few of those too - but - I prefer good old carbon steel - - -however - I'm not a fanatic about it)

I was also willing to compromise on the round butt it had, provided I could "put em where I wanted them to go".
It turned out that w/a 125 gr. .357 load, accuracy was "acceptable" - but - it came w/a price tag.
I could keep all six shots in the X ring of a B-27 @ 25 feet (not yards..Im decent but not that good) shooting rapid D/A - but - the ejector would tear the living crap out of my hand as the gun recoiled.
Shooting three or four strings like that wasn't any fun...

158 gr loads were a whole different matter.
The gun did not like 158 gr loads & it also didn't like lead.
That right there was a foul tip & then strike three...

158 gr. Golden Sabers - the only 158 gr. .357 mag load I tried in it to be perfectly honest - could not stay w/in the X ring @ 25 feet.
158 gr .38 spl lead SWC (my own handloads) literally went all over the place w/several of them keyholing.

When I got the gun home & cleaned it & scrubbed the leading out to the barrel, I ran a cotton ball down the bore, shined a light in there & through a magnifying glass was able to pick up some strands hanging in the bore.
No real problem there - new gun/rough bore, I could either fire lap it w/jacketed or hand lap it & take care of that issue.

(& yes - it was the bore & not the ammo. The same load shoots fine out of my 6" barrel model 19 - it always has for the last 30 some years.
It (the 158 gr lead .38spl handload) also shoots fine out of my Marlin Cowboy II. I shoots "dirty" but fine. Unique powder is like that...)

It was then that the incident w/the Hi Power took place.
The HP was on the table & I noticed how similar in size both guns were.
I looked around at the facts and figures of the .357 Mag, 125 gr load vs the 124 to gr 9mm Luger +P loads & made the decision to just dump the 66 and not waste time diddling with it.

That gun was cursed from the beginning anyhow..
It started life as a Walther PPK/s that turned into a 10 shot S&W 617 - both of which I also hated.

Maybe you should learn how to pull a trigger ....

Why?
I already know how to squeeze one .
Which is something I can't do right w/a J-Frame - or going up the scale a bit - an L frame...I wouldn't have one of those things either.
K and N - yes - no problem...
J and L - no way...
1911 pattern - no problem..

[smokehouse4444]

All right Webley...just received my new ammo shipment which includes the 130gr Fed Hydra Shok JHP low recoil. I decided to try it first over the CorBon 140 thinking the recoil may be less for my wife. We will see, and thanks for all of the information and explanation.

By the way, why does Federal put these HS's in a box that you basically have to break to get into. I had a box of 380's for the longest time, and everytime I would pick the box up with the broken tab it would spill out all over. Maybe there is a trick to it that I don't know.

[zombieslayer]

I carry a 640 every day. It took a good amount of practice to get really reliable accuracy, as I shoot semi's a lot more at the range. But that was years ago now, its a sturdy, easy-to carry gun with a lot of power for its size.
Small frame .357's aren't for everyone. But if you can handle the weapon, it is a nice package.
I even bought a sweet factory engraved no-lock a year or so ago, and its now my edc. To each his or her own...

[thecelt]

I love snub revolvers but if a bad guy is more distracted by a flash or blast than a gaping wound then you didnt do your job. A bad guy should be gasping for air from a brutal bullet wound more than anything.

[ares338]

I have a Ruger LCR 357. I bought this revolver on a whim. I didn't have any revolvers so I thought why not. I handled the 38 LCR at my LGS and loved the trigger pull compared to a S&W so I ordered the 357.
This weapon is very light and I front pocket carry sometimes for a change from my XDS. It took me a few range trips to get good accuracy but now I am very comfortable at 7 - 10 yds. Of course I practice with 38 specials and I always shoot a few of my carry rounds (Gold Dot 38 +P geared for snubbies). Yes...I also shoot 10 or 15 magnum rounds to stay in the game. The recoil on the magnum is not a problem at all but the muzzle blast is impressive...lol.

[Hook686]

I carry a S&W M&P 340, 1-7/8 " J-Frame. I load 158 grain with 6.5-7.0 grains of Unique and get 950-990 fps. This is in the high .38+P, low .357 magnum territory. It is about as good as the Speer Short Barrel .357 magnum loads I have tried.

I also carry a S&W 3913 9mm. I use Buffalo Bore 147 grain 9mm +P. I get about 1100 fps from those. I think both of these loadings are pretty equal. I shoot the 3913 more accurately at 10 yards, but the M&P 340 conceals better.

6 of one, half a dozen of the other to my way of thinking.

[smokehouse4444]

Just got back from the range where I was sighting in the lasers and checking out new ammo. From advise on this thread, and seeing some of the numbers, I bought a box of the Federal 130gr HS's for my wife's SP101. I shot the requisite 38 +P's, which are very mild, then shot the CorBon 110gr JHP's that I have kept this gun loaded with. Definitely more snap. Then shot a cylinder full of the 130's and whew, there was some snap on that! Definitely could feel that, but not terrible. That's a load. I talked with my wife and explained the difference. I asked if she would rather me keep the 110's in there. She said that if she were being attacked, she wouldn't be concerned with the recoil...load it with what has the best chance of stopping the attack.

[Nanuk]

Hal,

I believe you are getting all worked up over nothing. Extreme spread in a revolver can be several things. One of the most common is the chambers may be slightly different sizes, it happens. That is why if I were to worry about it I would mike everything and even record lot numbers of ammo, as that is also a know variable. You will generally find more variation from barrel to barrel than by a short barrel. Pythons have always been slower than Smiths, for the same reason they are more accurate - A tighter barrel.

The only time the 9mm comes close to the 357 magnum is where light 110 grain bullets are used in the 357 Mag.

I could keep all six shots in the X ring of a B-27 @ 25 feet (not yards..Im decent but not that good) shooting rapid D/A - but - the ejector would tear the living crap out of my hand as the gun recoiled.

You are doing something wrong. You should be nowhere near the ejector (which is shrouded on a 66) during firing.

[Hal]

Nanuk,
I'm not worked up in the least.
I accept that individual rounds can vary - sometimes by an extreme amount.
It's no big deal as far as I'm concerned,,for the most part.
I do believe that a revolver, having multiple chambers as opposed to a semi auto only having one chamber, helps to contribute to the issue.

Re: the 9mm vs the .357 - in the guns I mentioned in my initial post - a S&W 2.5" M66 and a Browning Hi Power.

The Speer Gold Dot 125 gr clocks at 1450 fps in .357mag and the 124 gr clocks at 1220 fps in 9mm +P.
In my book, given that w/a 2.5" barrel, the .357 is going to lose some & that the longer barrel of the Hi Power is going to be closer to what Speer claims, that's plenty close enough for me to consider them equal.
Speer lists using a 4" test barrel for both.

There are a lot of people that post here that do get worked up over velocity though. I've read numerous posts where people will believe that 50 to 75 fps difference between one brand and another is a significant amount.
I'm not one of them...

About the ejector,,,,that's on me 100%. I always (incorrectly) refer to the cylinder latch as "the ejector". I try to catch that slip when I post but sometimes it gets by me.
The 66 slid down in my grip during the course of firing 6 shots & somewhere around the third shot the cylinder latch dug into the base of my thumb and tore a chunk out. Firing the last shots w/it digging in deeper and deeper was pretty painful.
I kept at it though since I figured in a real life/death situation I wouldn't have the option of stopping - might as well find that sort of quirk a gun has well in advance right?

[Nanuk]

If you really dislike the revolver that bad sell it. That extra 200 FPS makes a world of difference. That is why I now carry a 357 Sig. I have the best of both worlds, a 125 JHP at an honest to goodness 1450 FPS.

I was getting 1250 FPS from my 640 with 145 grn STHP and my SD was in the 5-10 fps range.

[Hal]

I did get rid of it (the M66) a long time ago.

That extra 200 FPS makes a world of difference

I believe I went to great lengths above to point out that "that extra 200 fps" may or may not be there.
Even if it is there,,,,I highly doubt it makes any difference at all @ SD ranges, which are measured in feet not yards.
None.Nada.Zip.Zilch.

Stretch that range out to yards & - yes - velocity becomes more important.

This is absolutely nothing more than good old common sense...

Main stream ammunition manufactures have been putting out a "one size fits all" product for decades.
The same 125 gr load that goes into a 1 7/8" snubbie fits into an 8 3/8" Long Tom & everything in between.
Using the old rule of thumb of 50 fps loss for every 1" shorter barrel.....just the difference in barrel length alone makes a difference of what?
300 fps?

Throw in ES of shot to shot variance and things get even wilder in that respect.

What that tells me is the ammo makers know there's going to be broad performance band (velocity spread) and they make allowance for it.
While optimal bullet performance may be tuned for one barrel length, perfectly acceptable performance is possible on either side of optimal - well up to a couple hundred fps.

If 50 or 100 or even 200 fps gets you all worked up, then be my guest...knock yourself out and spend you hard earned money chasing it.
I honestly don't care about a couple hundred fps.
Three hundred? Yes. That's where I begin to take a more critical look....but...there again it's all relative.

BTW - if you still feel that 100 or 200 fps is "critical" consider this.
Speer uses the same 125 grain bullet for the .38spl +P that's used for the .357 mag....
Speer only catalogs one GDHP in 125 grain for the .38/.357 mag.

(They do however catalog a different product number for the "short barrel" 125 grain..HOWEVER - the finished "short barrel" ammunition is a different product)

The .38spl +P out of the 4" test barrel is 950 fps.
The same bullet out of a 4" test barrel in .357 mag is 1450 fps.
That's a whopping 500 fps difference.

Yet - despite such a huge difference, time after time after time after time - people have done "back yard" expansion tests of both loads and report good to excellent results.

What that tells me is the the spectrum of performance is much, much wider than anybody cares to admit...

[tomrkba]

The .38spl +P out of the 4" test barrel is 950 fps.
The same bullet out of a 4" test barrel in .357 mag is 1450 fps.

All that really matters in my mind is whether or not the bullet moving at 850 to 950 FPS (to account for short range--perhaps out to 50 feet) has the proper terminal ballistics characteristics to stop an attack effectively. I think it does.

People have a tendency to want "the best" that leads to needless optimization. The better method is to design requirements for the solution to a problem, or problem set, and determine the range of fit. The snub nosed revolver is intended for fast handling in short range encounters. I believe the 38 Special load has enough power and accuracy to stop attacks.

I load my Ruger Alaskan in 44 Magnum with the previously mentioned Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel ammunition. It is intended for defensive use against humans. It is likely inadequate for black bear, which is the largest critter I could encounter in my area. I change the ammo to moderate soft point hunting loads when I hike. I still carry a small revolver in 38 Special +P loaded with JHP in my pocket. Both guns meet my self-defense requirements when loaded appropriately.

[Deaf Smith]

The 125gr .357 Mag load at 1400+ fps is what MADE the .357 as the number 1 stopping round. And that is why, if you can take the blast and recoil, its so much better than any .38 Spl. round.

And yes power is important just as speed and accuracy is. You just have to balance now much clout you can control and still be effective.

Deaf

[smokehouse4444]

Along the same lines as the 357 short barrel, I am curious about the short barrel on my Kahr CM9. Because of this thread and some of the reading I've done, I first went with the Federal Hydra Shok 130 gr, and I am now going with the CorBon 140gr in the SP101. The BBTI charts show, however, that the 115fr CorBon +P is pretty nasty from a 3" barrel (Kahr CM9) compared to the others, but I read so much where most now are touting that the 115 is really too light. My thinking is that the faster 115 helps out the 3" barrel, do ya'll think this is a correct way of thinking, or like the 357 snub, do most advocate going a little heavier out of the pocket gun. I typically use 124gr +P Win Ranger T's or Gold Dots in the full size SIG P226

[Nanuk]

For me the 357 mag is the king of the hill for SD revolvers.

I understand that velocity is not the end all, for me it is consistency. I do not reload for max velocity, I reload for max accuracy and consistency, shot to shot (which is where accuracy come from).

It is really a Ford vs Chevy standard vs auto debate.

I believe I went to great lengths above to point out that "that extra 200 fps" may or may not be there.
Even if it is there,,,,I highly doubt it makes any difference at all @ SD ranges, which are measured in feet not yards.
None.Nada.Zip.Zilch.

Stretch that range out to yards & - yes - velocity becomes more important.

It is always important, at any distance. That is why the 357 is so much more effective than the 38+P.

[seeker_two]

It is always important, at any distance. That is why the 357 is so much more effective than the 38+P.

Effective at what? Expansion?.....bullet construction can give you a .38Spl round that expands at lower velocity. Penetration?....see above. Energy transfer?....yes, but not as much as you think.

The only thing more you get from a .357Mag snub at close range over a .38Spl+P or 9mm is blast & recoil.

[Hal]

I used to be all hung up on velocity....
Not any more.
850 to 1100 fps is plenty for up close (SD ranges).

[Webleymkv]

Quote:
It is always important, at any distance. That is why the 357 is so much more effective than the 38+P.

Effective at what? Expansion?.....bullet construction can give you a .38Spl round that expands at lower velocity. Penetration?....see above.

Well, let's look at what they do from snubs. According to Brassfetcher, a 158gr Speer Gold Dot .357 from a 2.5" barrel impacted the gel block at a velocity of 1047fps, penetrated 13.5", and expaned to 0.198 square inches (this averages to 0.502" diameter). Likewise, a 180gr Winchester Black Talon .357 Magnum from a 2 1/2" barrel impacted at 1092fps, penetrated 13.9", and expanded to 0.314 square inches (avg. diameter 0.632").

By comparison, a .38 Special with modern premium bullets has trouble meeting those numbers even when given the advantage of a full 4" barrel. The Speer 125gr .38 +P Gold Dot impacted at 888fps, penetrated 12.6", and expanded to 0.199 square inches (avg diameter 0.503"). The Winchester 130gr SXT .38 +P impacted at 923fps, penetrated only 9.8", and expanded to 0.299 square inches (avg. diameter 0.617"). The only .38 Spl loadings that could rival or exceed the .357 Magnum in both expansion and penetration were some of the Buffalo Bore offerings, but their velocities are much closer to standard .357 Magnum numbers than they are .38 +P.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/357%20Ma...ry%20Table.pdf

http://www.brassfetcher.com/38%20Spe...ry%20Table.pdf