Revolver checkout: how to tell if a particular specimen is any good - Page 5

10 Beers · July 24, 2009, 06:10 PM

If you get the chance to do it without getting in trouble, shoot a 357 at night. you'll see plenty of orange fire come out of the muzzle but you'll also see two scary balls of fire on each side of the gun from the cylinder gap. Keep this in mind when you come up with some new interesting way to grip your revolver. The front of the trigger guard is as far as flesh goes, period!

Lancear15 · July 30, 2009, 06:46 PM

It is a testament to the value of this information that this thread is over 8 years old and still is living. It was likely written on dial-up over a 56k modem, now here with are now with 10mbs cable connections.

Thanks again to the OP.

stonesfan08 · July 31, 2009, 03:51 AM

great post. can you post somthing like this for autoloaders mainly 1911

sail1993 · October 17, 2009, 05:49 PM

EXCELLENT THREAD. I have three firearms, all new. I was hesitant about buying a used revolver but feel more confident about it now. Just picked up a set of standard feelers so now I'll look a lot less like a newbie.

Thanks so much!

Jim March · October 17, 2009, 06:52 PM

For the record, I'm working on a 2009 re-write. Some contemplated changes including pulling the grip panels to look for rust (recently an issue with NEW Rugers as a few seem to have skipped the "thoroughly clean the bluing salts off" step!) and a discussion on how some wheelguns want to tightly lock the cylinder in place while some want to include a bit of rotational slop.

Also more gun/make specific notes. Stay tuned.

carguychris · October 26, 2009, 04:43 PM

Regarding Jim March's rewrite...

What does everyone think of adding FAQ-style answers to a few basic make-specific questions that pop up repeatedly?

I'm not suggesting anything outrageously complicated, such as engineering revision dash number explanations for every gun in the S&W lineup.

I'd also steer clear of anything controversial like the S&W ILS. I'm thinking of more basic stuff. Examples:

Explanations of the 2 types of S&W hammer blocks and how to identify a revolver without one
How to distinguish round-butt and square-butt S&W grip frames
Where to find the serial number on a S&W revolver (would mesh nicely with removing the stocks to check for rust)
Where to find the model number on post-1957 S&Ws
What "pinned and recessed" means
A basic explanation of the older Ruger SA hammer block retrofit program

Thoughts?

I'm willing to contribute explanations of the S&W questions.

monkydad · November 21, 2009, 01:19 PM

i need help to find out what model this is and find the rest of the barols and to because i gess you can change them out new to this please if you can help lett me no

aarondhgraham · December 2, 2009, 01:56 PM

This type of thread is why I enjoy this forum,,,

Great information that I can use this weekend when I hit the Tulsa gun show,,,
I'm looking for a .22 snub-nose revolver.

There are really only three new ones out there,,,
S&W 317, Taurus 94, and Charter Pathfinder.

I've always been very apprehensive about buying a used firearm,,,
Unless I knew the previous owner and the guns history.

Thanks for the lessons guys,,,

Aarond

4D5 · December 4, 2009, 10:03 PM

I’d like to add another timing check to the evaluation criteria.

Do the following to check for timing lockup in single action operation.

After completing all the SAFE HANDLING CHECKS checks…

With the gun closed, hammer down and empty, hold the gun firmly and slowly pull the hammer back for single action. You are looking for the bolt to engage the cylinder and lock up completely BEFORE the hammer engages the sear and locks back on the sear. The bolt must engage the cylinder and lock up before the hammer locks back on the sear, otherwise it is out of time.

If this test fails, then there is the possibility that when the gun fires it could/would

1) shave the bullet on the front of the barrel as it enters the barrel, serious and bad.

2) cylinder could rotate slightly and cause a catastrophic problem where the bullet could not exit the cylinder because it had struck the rear of the barrel, very serious and very bad.

4D5

w_houle · December 4, 2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

With the gun closed, hammer down and empty, hold the gun firmly and slowly pull the hammer back for single action.

Okay, I will go ahead and post it anyway. I was going to ask how slow because I have one that if I go very slow it doesn't go, BUT... I realized it was just a matter of not actually pulling the hammer back far enough because I hear the trigger fall into position before the end of the full hammer retraction. Now that I know about that; it locks every time, even when I grab the cylinder while cocking it.

4D5 · December 5, 2009, 12:33 AM

Quote:

ask how slow because

You want to go slow enough so that you can detect the bolt engaging the stop in the cylinder before the hammer/sear lock up. Ideally, the cylinder should stop turning and be in full lockup with the bolt just before the hammer is caught by the sear.

After doing this with a few revolvers you'll kind of get a feel for it and even be able to discern differences in different revolvers.

4D5 · December 11, 2009, 12:43 AM

Quote:

3) With the trigger still back all the way, check for cylinder wiggle. Front/back is particularly undesirable; a bit of side to side is OK but it's a bad thing if you can wiggle it one way, let go, and then spin it the other way a fraction of an inch and it stays there too. At the very least, it should "want" to stop in just one place (later, we'll see if that place is any good). The ultimate is a "welded to the frame" feeling.

1) Can someone please explain spinning the cylinder while the trigger is still back (holding the cylinder in lockup) or am I missing something.

2) I didn't find the "we'll see if that place is any good" farther down.

Thanks, 4D5

Jim March · December 11, 2009, 02:28 AM

OK. Yeah, this IS scheduled for a re-write

. I'll try and get to it this weekend.

The #3 "rotational slop" check means you put the gun in "full lockup" as described (hammer down, trigger back, just like you'd do when firing it) and you check to see if it spins just a bit. NOT enough to jump from the cylinder bore - if it does that, something is WAY wrong. No, you're checking for minuscule amounts of rotational play. On a Colt double action, early Charter Arms or other "tight lockup design", there'll be no play at all. On S&Ws, Rugers, Taurii and most others, there'll be some but it shouldn't be excessive - if the outside edge of the cylinder moves more than a millimeter or so, that's too much. This latter class is supposed to have a bit of rotational slop though, unless it's been custom gunsmithed.

Right, so assuming the cylinder is being locked in pretty tight, a later step involves making sure the barrel lines up with the cylinder bores via the flashlight trick or other methods. THAT is what tells you if the cylinder is being locked into a good place, or a bad place. This is more critical in the "tight designs" like the DA Colts that try and hold the cylinder dead firm. If it holds it firm in an out-of-alignment position, the gun tries to tear itself apart in short order...the bullets slam on the edge of the barrel's rear end because the alignment isn't right. In the S&W/Ruger/etc. "loose" types, as long as the alignment is "close" the bullet can spin the cylinder a tiny bit to create a proper alignment on firing - it's not quite as accurate, but it's more reliable and means fewer trips to see a gunsmith over the life of the gun.

Does that help?

4D5 · December 11, 2009, 09:50 PM

Thanks Jim,

That does help, confirms what I thought. I guess when I think "spin" I'm thinking like when the hammer is pulled enough to spin the cylinder. For the check I'd think the idea would be more like "rotational movement of the cylinder when in lockup".

Did you see my post, a few back, about the timing check for making sure the bolt engages well before the hammer is captured by the sear?

Thanks, 4D5

SAXD · January 1, 2010, 11:30 AM

Is this the same procedure for rimfire revolvers?

(Also, is there any danger in dry firing them?)

Jim March · January 1, 2010, 01:03 PM

Rimfire works the same. You want to avoid dry-firing as much as possible but fortunately dry-fire isn't necessary in these tests unless you have a totally-conceal-hammer model - and those are extremely rare in rimfire.

Cajun Ken · January 10, 2010, 10:32 AM

Jim:
I am looking for a good used Ruger LCR.How do I put it in full lockup to do the various tests.

Thanks

Ken

Jim March · January 10, 2010, 02:36 PM

Ken: dry-fire it. It's the only way. Fortunately Ruger rates their stuff for unlimited dry-fire.

Pegasis · February 22, 2010, 07:21 PM

Jim, I appreciated your article and ran the tests. Found a nice S&W 15-4 ser # AJD2XXX. I have tried to date it but have failed. Options would be nice. Pegasis

w_houle · May 16, 2010, 09:22 PM

Sorry it took so long to get back to this...

Quote:

Ideally, the cylinder should stop turning and be in full lockup with the bolt just before the hammer is caught by the sear.

So if the sear clicks before the cylinder stops? Would the fix be different for DA/SA than SAO? Would it be a fix that I can do, or does it involve new parts?

streetmaster · July 8, 2010, 10:21 PM

Thanks so much for all this information!

I recently inherited a S&W Model 67-1 from my father who passed away in December '09. He was a gun enthusiast for as long as I can remember. Some would have said he was obsessed. I was one of 5 sons, we were all tought to shoot many varieties of firearms from age 8 and upward. By the time I was 16, I had learned to shoot anything from a multitude of .22's (rifle and pistol) to all shotgun gauges, to most pistol and rifle choices, I even had the pleasure of shooting an Uzi 9mm. He loved them all and shared them with his boys.

To get back on topic... I put the revolver I just inherited to all the tests outlined in this thread, and I'm not surprised that it passed every test, even considering that it was made in 1987. This thing is tight(not too tight). He knew his "stuff" when buying this weapon, I have no doubt. The rifling looks like new. I can only wish he was still here to share my good fortune.

01frida · July 23, 2010, 06:30 PM

Great information. I have a S&W .38 special CTG that I just inherited. I am not familiar with revolvers and your post was most helpful. One question - with the cylinder closed I can rotate it off the cylinder keeper with minimal effort. All other tests you mention seem to be OK with this revolver. Is this normal? I think the gun is about 50 years old but looks to be in excellant condition. Thank you for the information.

alan · August 31, 2010, 11:20 PM

While I personally lean toward pistols, your article was an excellent effort, quite likely to save some from upset, possibly from damage too.

If I understood correctly, you mentioned a follow up/follow on comment. Look forward to that.

KingJames · September 14, 2010, 06:14 PM

Jim - thanks for taking your time posting this timeless info. I will be applying it on my next buy.

Amin Parker · October 16, 2010, 07:27 AM

This really is brilliant advice. Used it when i bought my Python the other day.

October 17, 2009, 06:52 PM	#105
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	For the record, I'm working on a 2009 re-write. Some contemplated changes including pulling the grip panels to look for rust (recently an issue with NEW Rugers as a few seem to have skipped the "thoroughly clean the bluing salts off" step!) and a discussion on how some wheelguns want to tightly lock the cylinder in place while some want to include a bit of rotational slop. Also more gun/make specific notes. Stay tuned. __________________ Jim March

October 26, 2009, 04:43 PM	#106
carguychris Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 7,523	Suggestions for rewrite Regarding Jim March's rewrite... What does everyone think of adding FAQ-style answers to a few basic make-specific questions that pop up repeatedly? I'm not suggesting anything outrageously complicated, such as engineering revision dash number explanations for every gun in the S&W lineup. I'd also steer clear of anything controversial like the S&W ILS. I'm thinking of more basic stuff. Examples: Explanations of the 2 types of S&W hammer blocks and how to identify a revolver without one How to distinguish round-butt and square-butt S&W grip frames Where to find the serial number on a S&W revolver (would mesh nicely with removing the stocks to check for rust) Where to find the model number on post-1957 S&Ws What "pinned and recessed" means A basic explanation of the older Ruger SA hammer block retrofit program Thoughts? I'm willing to contribute explanations of the S&W questions.

November 21, 2009, 01:19 PM	#107
monkydad Junior Member Join Date: November 21, 2009 Posts: 2	dan wesson 357 i need help to find out what model this is and find the rest of the barols and to because i gess you can change them out new to this please if you can help lett me no

December 2, 2009, 01:56 PM	#108
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Great thread,,, This type of thread is why I enjoy this forum,,, Great information that I can use this weekend when I hit the Tulsa gun show,,, I'm looking for a .22 snub-nose revolver. There are really only three new ones out there,,, S&W 317, Taurus 94, and Charter Pathfinder. I've always been very apprehensive about buying a used firearm,,, Unless I knew the previous owner and the guns history. Thanks for the lessons guys,,, Aarond

December 4, 2009, 10:03 PM	#109
4D5 Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2002 Location: Nevada, Carson Valley Posts: 194	I'd like to add a check for single action timing test I’d like to add another timing check to the evaluation criteria. Do the following to check for timing lockup in single action operation. After completing all the SAFE HANDLING CHECKS checks… With the gun closed, hammer down and empty, hold the gun firmly and slowly pull the hammer back for single action. You are looking for the bolt to engage the cylinder and lock up completely BEFORE the hammer engages the sear and locks back on the sear. The bolt must engage the cylinder and lock up before the hammer locks back on the sear, otherwise it is out of time. If this test fails, then there is the possibility that when the gun fires it could/would 1) shave the bullet on the front of the barrel as it enters the barrel, serious and bad. 2) cylinder could rotate slightly and cause a catastrophic problem where the bullet could not exit the cylinder because it had struck the rear of the barrel, very serious and very bad. 4D5

July 24, 2009, 06:10 PM	#101
10 Beers Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2008 Location: Paradise(South Florida) Posts: 343	If you get the chance to do it without getting in trouble, shoot a 357 at night. you'll see plenty of orange fire come out of the muzzle but you'll also see two scary balls of fire on each side of the gun from the cylinder gap. Keep this in mind when you come up with some new interesting way to grip your revolver. The front of the trigger guard is as far as flesh goes, period!

July 30, 2009, 06:46 PM	#102
Lancear15 Junior Member Join Date: July 30, 2009 Posts: 1	It is a testament to the value of this information that this thread is over 8 years old and still is living. It was likely written on dial-up over a 56k modem, now here with are now with 10mbs cable connections. Thanks again to the OP.

July 31, 2009, 03:51 AM	#103
stonesfan08 Member Join Date: July 31, 2009 Location: Missouri Posts: 43	great post. can you post somthing like this for autoloaders mainly 1911

October 17, 2009, 05:49 PM	#104
sail1993 Junior Member Join Date: October 17, 2009 Posts: 1	EXCELLENT THREAD. I have three firearms, all new. I was hesitant about buying a used revolver but feel more confident about it now. Just picked up a set of standard feelers so now I'll look a lot less like a newbie. Thanks so much!

December 11, 2009, 02:28 AM	#113
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	OK. Yeah, this IS scheduled for a re-write . I'll try and get to it this weekend. The #3 "rotational slop" check means you put the gun in "full lockup" as described (hammer down, trigger back, just like you'd do when firing it) and you check to see if it spins just a bit. NOT enough to jump from the cylinder bore - if it does that, something is WAY wrong. No, you're checking for minuscule amounts of rotational play. On a Colt double action, early Charter Arms or other "tight lockup design", there'll be no play at all. On S&Ws, Rugers, Taurii and most others, there'll be some but it shouldn't be excessive - if the outside edge of the cylinder moves more than a millimeter or so, that's too much. This latter class is supposed to have a bit of rotational slop though, unless it's been custom gunsmithed. Right, so assuming the cylinder is being locked in pretty tight, a later step involves making sure the barrel lines up with the cylinder bores via the flashlight trick or other methods. THAT is what tells you if the cylinder is being locked into a good place, or a bad place. This is more critical in the "tight designs" like the DA Colts that try and hold the cylinder dead firm. If it holds it firm in an out-of-alignment position, the gun tries to tear itself apart in short order...the bullets slam on the edge of the barrel's rear end because the alignment isn't right. In the S&W/Ruger/etc. "loose" types, as long as the alignment is "close" the bullet can spin the cylinder a tiny bit to create a proper alignment on firing - it's not quite as accurate, but it's more reliable and means fewer trips to see a gunsmith over the life of the gun. Does that help? __________________ Jim March

December 11, 2009, 09:50 PM	#114
4D5 Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2002 Location: Nevada, Carson Valley Posts: 194	Does help Thanks Jim, That does help, confirms what I thought. I guess when I think "spin" I'm thinking like when the hammer is pulled enough to spin the cylinder. For the check I'd think the idea would be more like "rotational movement of the cylinder when in lockup". Did you see my post, a few back, about the timing check for making sure the bolt engages well before the hammer is captured by the sear? Thanks, 4D5

January 1, 2010, 11:30 AM	#115
SAXD Junior Member Join Date: December 31, 2009 Posts: 2	Is this the same procedure for rimfire revolvers? (Also, is there any danger in dry firing them?)

January 1, 2010, 01:03 PM	#116
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	Rimfire works the same. You want to avoid dry-firing as much as possible but fortunately dry-fire isn't necessary in these tests unless you have a totally-conceal-hammer model - and those are extremely rare in rimfire. __________________ Jim March

January 10, 2010, 10:32 AM	#117
Cajun Ken Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 119	Jim: I am looking for a good used Ruger LCR.How do I put it in full lockup to do the various tests. Thanks Ken

January 10, 2010, 02:36 PM	#118
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	Ken: dry-fire it. It's the only way. Fortunately Ruger rates their stuff for unlimited dry-fire. __________________ Jim March

February 22, 2010, 07:21 PM	#119
Pegasis Junior Member Join Date: February 22, 2010 Posts: 1	Thanks and Help! Jim, I appreciated your article and ran the tests. Found a nice S&W 15-4 ser # AJD2XXX. I have tried to date it but have failed. Options would be nice. Pegasis

July 8, 2010, 10:21 PM	#121
streetmaster Junior Member Join Date: July 6, 2010 Posts: 10	Thanks so much for all this information! I recently inherited a S&W Model 67-1 from my father who passed away in December '09. He was a gun enthusiast for as long as I can remember. Some would have said he was obsessed. I was one of 5 sons, we were all tought to shoot many varieties of firearms from age 8 and upward. By the time I was 16, I had learned to shoot anything from a multitude of .22's (rifle and pistol) to all shotgun gauges, to most pistol and rifle choices, I even had the pleasure of shooting an Uzi 9mm. He loved them all and shared them with his boys. To get back on topic... I put the revolver I just inherited to all the tests outlined in this thread, and I'm not surprised that it passed every test, even considering that it was made in 1987. This thing is tight(not too tight). He knew his "stuff" when buying this weapon, I have no doubt. The rifling looks like new. I can only wish he was still here to share my good fortune.

July 23, 2010, 06:30 PM	#122
01frida Member Join Date: July 21, 2010 Posts: 39	S&W .38 special CTG Great information. I have a S&W .38 special CTG that I just inherited. I am not familiar with revolvers and your post was most helpful. One question - with the cylinder closed I can rotate it off the cylinder keeper with minimal effort. All other tests you mention seem to be OK with this revolver. Is this normal? I think the gun is about 50 years old but looks to be in excellant condition. Thank you for the information.

August 31, 2010, 11:20 PM	#123
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	While I personally lean toward pistols, your article was an excellent effort, quite likely to save some from upset, possibly from damage too. If I understood correctly, you mentioned a follow up/follow on comment. Look forward to that.

September 14, 2010, 06:14 PM	#124
KingJames Junior Member Join Date: October 10, 2005 Location: California Posts: 6	Jim - thanks for taking your time posting this timeless info. I will be applying it on my next buy.

October 16, 2010, 07:27 AM	#125
Amin Parker Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2010 Posts: 1,118	This really is brilliant advice. Used it when i bought my Python the other day.

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