Expansion vs. size?

[K_Mac]

Power, penetration, energy transfer, recoil, controllability, wound ballistics, comfort are all factors that a shooter must bring into balance in choosing a weapon for self defense. Choosing an extreme of any factor will seldom result in an optimal outcome.

The reason many of us carry 9 mm is that based on the above, along with speed on target (which could fall under controllability) and capacity, we find the best ballance.

There are many studies of the efficacy of service calibers in stopping humans. I've never seen any objective study that shows significant difference in 9 mm, .40, or .45 caliber handguns. 357 magnum has a very slight edge but not enough to justify slower and less accurate follow-up shots for me, along with lower capacity and slower reloads.

With regular practice I shoot my 9 mm much better and with greater confidence than any other self-defense handgun. Find what works best and practice until you are proficient, comfortable and confident. Then add complexity and difficulty. Rinse and repeat. Size is far less important than the ability to repeatedly and quickly hit your target under pressure in adverse conditions.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

An accurate shot puts the projectile where it needs to be (say, in the upper thoracic zone on a human target), but it is the penetrative ability of the round (i.e., its sectional density), plus material construction, plus it's velocity that determine how far the bullet will penetrate after surface impact.

I think we are saying the same thing; but you misunderstood what I meant by shot placement.

You are aiming at the surface target; because that is what you can see. That isn't where you are trying to place the shot though. You are trying to hit a target you can't see. I can show you a shooting where the bad guy took one dead center - right in the A-zone; however due to the angle of the shot as he turned, it didn't even graze the skin (the above link has some great diagrams demonstrating this). It passed through his shirt dead center above his heart without ever touching him (his hand however looked like that scene from "The Crow.")

An arm in front of the torso, say from someone pointing a gun back at you, can reduce penetration or deflect a round. A subject can turn quickly or go prone, increasing the amount of penetration you need to hit the target.

Just being able to hit the target you can see accurately, doesn't guarantee good shot placement. This is why .22LR is rarely recommended for self defense even though it is very easy to shoot accurately.

[kenny53]

Nanny1 you will soon find out that this topic is one that stirs passion in some, and everyone has an opinion.

For me 9 mm is my choice for self-defense. I use high quality ammo that I am confident will expand, and the lower recoil allows me to be faster and more accurate with follow-up shots. Another benefit is higher capacity vs a larger round.

Statistically there is little difference in 9 mm, .40, and .45 in defensive use. Choose the one you shoot the best is good advice, given by many professionals.

K-Mac

I am afraid I have to agree with you 100%. I honestly believe with bullet technology today 9mm, 40, 45acp all work great. When I first choose a carry gun I went with 9mm mainly for cost. I still carry 9mm most of the time but will pack a 45 acp from time to time.

[Cheapshooter]

Shot placement is important. With a hit to the central nervous system being a sure instant stopping shot. But is it really only accuracy? Yes, you need to be accurate, but with a running, jumping, moving attacker you also need some luck. That's a place where size can help some, but not a great deal. With all the modern bullets being so much better than the old hollow points, I wouldn't be all that concerned about size. Just shoot the round you shoot best with that works in a gun suitable for the purpose. Be it concealed carry, a vehicle gun, or home defense.
As to the keeping a gun in an unattended vehicle, at least get a good safe box that is securely attached to something in the vehicle like a seat frame. A car thief will get everything, but the more common smash and grab thug won't want to take the time to defeat a good car safe box.

[muzzleblast...]

Originally Posted by K_Mac

...There are many studies of the efficacy of service calibers in stopping humans. I've never seen any objective study that shows significant difference in 9 mm, .40, or .45 caliber handguns...

Just as there are no objective studies that show 9mm efficacy is equal to cartridges featuring larger caliber and heavier bullets.

[Hilltop Shooter]

Ive never understood why so many people get so "stirred up" with this type conversation. I carry a few different guns/calibers including 9mm and 45 and am a fan of both. I do not draw a line a "fight" for either one. Honestly, being armed and alert is the most important aspect. Being well versed with whichever firearm you choose by way of practice comes next followed by a list of things. Bullet placement and design, how well and level headed you respond in the heat of battle etc. By the time you get to the diameter of the bullet, .35"-.45" is so inconsequential its laughable to have these endless debates. Especially the "you might miss a vital organ with you .35" bullet that i could strike with my .45" line." Really? If you rely on that hair size of a difference to save your life, wow.

Just be armed, be prepared. Stay alert and practice as often with your carry gun as you can with the bullet design that best fits your defensive needs. Try to avoid dangerous situations but be ready if one finds you. No matter which caliber you choose, plz dont rely on a micro difference in surface area going into something as big as a human to sway you or save you.

[David R]

I have read, this bullet expands to X diameter.


If you want bigger, start bigger. I read above how bigger faster makes for less control including recover time. I find the 45 no more difficult to control than a 40.

They didn't come out with the double tap untill the 9 mm was popular.

To each his own.

David

[Nanuk]

They didn't come out with the double tap untill the 9 mm was popular.

No. We were taught double taps in LE with 357 magnum revolvers back in the late 70's early 80's.

[David R]

Thank you.

David

[Model12Win]

Meh.

I've come to the conclusion that if it's a decent diameter and penetrate to the vitals, it's all in the shot placement. Expansion of an HP can increase the wounding but not enough to make up for a bad shot or one that can't get to the vitals.

Expansion is just a benefit and can also reduce, though not eliminate, over penet ration issues though that's a can of worms unto itself.

[peterg7]

Big and heavy for me.


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[Water-Man]

A larger bullet doesn't always translate to larger expansion.

[Hawg]

A larger bullet doesn't always translate to larger expansion.

It doesn't matter, it's large to begin with.

[Water-Man]

Yea, we've all heard that more than once. Ad nauseam.

[shootniron]

Y'all carry what you want...I carry these.

I have shot enough animals with them and done enough of my own testing to feel completely confident in their performance on critters...2 or 4 legged. They penetrate straight, they penetrate deep...if his arm gets in the way, it gets penetrated, too and they will still penetrate to any vital organ or area in the body. Also, they perform the same way, every time and expansion is not necessary. There is no supposition involved with the aforementioned...it is fact.

.44 Special 230gr(my alloy) full caliber wadcutter 900fps

[Water-Man]

Tell us about all the people you've shot with them.

[T. O'Heir]

A larger bullet doesn't guarantee anything. A .45 calibre FMJ doesn't do anything a 9mm FMJ won't do. Neither does a .45 calibre HP. Then there's the simple physics of the whole thing.
"...the bullets were cold..." That means nothing. However, some powders are temperature sensitive.
"...the key factor is penetration..." Nope. It's penetrating enough and hitting a vital organ. A through and through penetrates but doesn't do much other than cause pain. If the bullet merely clips a vital organ or blood vessel, you have a different result.
"...rather not get shot with a hollow point..." You think a cast bullet would be better? Cast bullets tend to do far more damage than any jacketed bullet. Cast bullets tend to disintegrate, after expanding to basically flat upon impact with hard things.
"...store a gun in your vehicle..." That's an invitation to becoming the victim of a crime.

[Dobe]

Originally Posted by ammo.crafter

Never a fan of hollow points and find solids have greater penetration.



As others have said, shot placement is number one.



BTW, vehicles can be stolen and/or broken into. Not a good place to store a gun.

Your house can be broken into also. There are many scenarios where storing in a vehicle is ok, particularly in more rural areas.


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[Dobe]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

A larger bullet doesn't guarantee anything. A .45 calibre FMJ doesn't do anything a 9mm FMJ won't do. Neither does a .45 calibre HP. Then there's the simple physics of the whole thing.

"...the bullets were cold..." That means nothing. However, some powders are temperature sensitive.

"...the key factor is penetration..." Nope. It's penetrating enough and hitting a vital organ. A through and through penetrates but doesn't do much other than cause pain. If the bullet merely clips a vital organ or blood vessel, you have a different result.

"...rather not get shot with a hollow point..." You think a cast bullet would be better? Cast bullets tend to do far more damage than any jacketed bullet. Cast bullets tend to disintegrate, after expanding to basically flat upon impact with hard things.

"...store a gun in your vehicle..." That's an invitation to becoming the victim of a crime.

I'm not sure if you have ever cast bullets or not, or if you simply have never shot any game with cast bullets.

Also, I seriously doubt all of these LEOs would be carrying expanding bullets, if it didn't make a difference.

Remember the mantra of the 9mm: "With modern ammunition (reads reliably expanding projectiles), the 9mm is just as effective as ..."


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[agtman]

"...the key factor is penetration..." Nope. It's penetrating enough and hitting a vital organ * * *

Which is what I said, but you didn't bother to read.

If the bullet merely clips a vital organ or blood vessel, you have a different result.

Not necessarily, and certainly not as opposed to a smaller-diameter bullet that doesn't strike, or partially strike, a vital organ at all.

Or, worse, it underpenetrates, which means the smaller projectile doesn't even get on the "field of terminal play," but is resigned to simply watching from the bleachers with the band.

Go 'Bama'!