October 4, 2012, 09:34 PM | #26 |
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Don't believe in 'stopping power ' ?
My early tests using tough woodchucks as a test showed an important difference between 9mm and 45acp. This was before the fancy JHPs. A hit with a 9mm that wasn't an immediate kill --the chuck would RUN back to his hole . Same hit witha 45acp -- the chuck would WALK back to his hole !
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October 4, 2012, 11:10 PM | #27 | ||
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Wait! Lemme get my whip! Quote:
M&S had just published their first "study" and they would've gotten away with it had they not pushed their luck and published further "studies". (it's hard, but not impossible to do a statistical analysis like those I've cited above without precursors) I have often wondered how (let alone "if") someone would go about attempting to debunk the Fackler/Roberts/IWBA/FBI construct given that there's a ton of concrete data (gelatin tests) not to mention heavily researched bullet penetration models like those proposed by MacPherson and Schwartz.
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October 4, 2012, 11:12 PM | #28 | |
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October 5, 2012, 07:54 AM | #29 |
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In my opinion, based upon years of training, is that the one shot stop concept is complete BS, compounded by sheer stupidity.
If your life is in imminent danger, only a fool would rely on one shot to end the threat. If you are forced to resort to deadly force, the only object is to stop the attacker from continuing the action that is a threat to your life. In order to do this, you will be forced to continue to fire until the threat has ended. If you are justified to fire one shot, you are just as justified to fire as many as needed to end the threat. We were taught to continue firing until the threat has ended. Subject on the ground and unable to continue to threaten your life, or running for the hills. I, for one, would never count on one shot to accomplish this. Therefore, I think that a "one magazine or cylinder" stop, is much more realistic. Just my opinion, and you have paid me exactly what it's worth. |
October 5, 2012, 08:52 AM | #30 |
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I've always found this interesting:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866 Guy just analyzed every shooting case he could find, and compiled the data. Helped me let go of the notion that I "needed" to carry a .45. YMMV. |
October 5, 2012, 01:47 PM | #31 | |
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Hey...I know you didn't mean me. Just for the record, I've been shooting and training every week for the past 5 years and shooting since I was 12 at least once every 2 weeks. Just saying... |
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October 5, 2012, 01:56 PM | #32 |
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BTW Snort, good link. Reading it as I type this.
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October 5, 2012, 02:31 PM | #33 | |
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Uh, I don't think the point of any "one shot stop" discussion was to shoot once, then stop. I've never ever heard that idea expressed in any way. I believe the idea of the concept was trying to figure out what was most likely to work fastest, and with fewest shots required to get the job done. A 22 with solids may indeed stop an attack if fired enough times, but it may not do it quickly enough to satisfy most of us. From shooting game, I have a hard time putting much faith in any of the "tests" if any RN solid bullet is anywhere near close to a functioning hollow point or flat point (Keith type) bullet in effectiveness. Regarding the comment above about shooting critters with 9's and 45 autos, that about reflects my experience. RN full jacket loads are pretty pathetic when trying to kill game, or keep them from wandering off after shooting them. After using 45 auto ball ammo on various small game, I had to conclude people were much less tough than the avarage jack rabbit or coyote. I shot one pack rat 3 or 4 times with 9mm ball before it slowly sucumbed. A single 22 HP would have been pretty much instantly fatal, as they generally are with jacks, and marmots. Large flat points, and hollow points that work make wicked wounds in game, and anchor them much faster than any type of round nose bullet. Larger animals behave differently than smaller ones when shot, but shoot enough game with different things, and you start to look at things a bit differently than most seem to.
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October 5, 2012, 07:40 PM | #34 | ||
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I carried a 45 from 1979 to 1982 and a 357 Magnum on duty until 1996 and off duty until 2003. Now I carry a 357 Sig. Quote:
I will carry the most powerful gun I can shoot well and conceal. Handguns are enough of a compromise all by themselves. Come on.... Can't we beat that dead horse......
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October 6, 2012, 12:37 AM | #35 |
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"I will carry the most powerful gun I can shoot well and conceal. Handguns are enough of a compromise all by themselves."
Well said. That's a wrap, folks.
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October 6, 2012, 02:12 AM | #36 | |
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Bring the lock and chain! SIG 1911 XO / SA 1911 custom / Colt Gold Cup / Colt 70 Series / SIG P226 e2 / Browning High-power / Walther PPQ / G34 / G19 / G21 / G22 / S&W M-19 / Hk USP 40 / Rem 870 / Rock R. AR-15 sent from my Samsung Galaxy SII |
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October 6, 2012, 02:26 AM | #37 | ||
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The following data from that study is in my view the most interesting:The assailants not incapacitated are the ones who can still hurt you. And as Ellifritz says (emphasis added): We know that many, perhaps even most, aggressors stop when shot because they choose to. They effectively give up. The real question is what will force the person physiologically to stop if he doesn't give up. And that will usually be one of the more potent cartridges.
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October 6, 2012, 02:52 AM | #38 | |
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Which would be 9mm, 357SIG, .380ACP, .38special, .357magnum, .40S&W, 10mm, .45ACP...and others along those lines. Correct? Of course with modern hollow points. |
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October 6, 2012, 03:16 AM | #39 |
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boy this thread takes me back some twenty-two years. I still have some of the old issues from the late eighties and early nineties. This debate was in full bloom back then. Back then I believed in the One Shot Stop findings. I considered them to be gospel. But I was twenty also. Times (and people) change.
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October 6, 2012, 03:19 AM | #40 |
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Jeff! So being there then and now, what's your take on it personally?
What do you carry and shoot best? |
October 6, 2012, 03:50 AM | #41 | |
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However, my biggest takeaway from it was the following data: Average # of Rounds to Incapacitation: 2.45 - 9mm 2.36 - .40 S&W 2.08 - .45 ACP In other words, chances are good that you'll need to shoot at least twice with all of those calibers. The question for me becomes, "Which of those rounds do I shoot best when I'm shooting fast?" |
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October 6, 2012, 08:16 AM | #42 |
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You can read this kind of stuff until you want to poke your eyeballs out...
Here's the bottom line: It's not the ammo, it's the accuracy. A well placed .22LR at close range will kill somebody. A 44 magnum at close range that misses will only make a very loud noise. Shot placement. Shot placement. Shot placement. Get good with whatever ammo load you are carrying and you'll be way ahead of anyone who obsesses over ammo more than they do over practicing to be accurate under stress. |
October 6, 2012, 08:23 AM | #43 |
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True -____-
Sad sad sad.... http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...g-someone?lite SIG 1911 XO / SA 1911 custom / Colt Gold Cup / Colt 70 Series / SIG P226 e2 / Browning High-power / Walther PPQ / G34 / G19 / G21 / G22 / S&W M-19 / Hk USP 40 / Rem 870 / Rock R. AR-15 sent from my Samsung Galaxy SII |
October 6, 2012, 09:56 AM | #44 | |||
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In fact, sometimes a well placed .357 Magnum isn't enough. LAPD Officer Stacy Lim was shot in the chest with a .357 Magnum and still ran down her attacker, returned fire, killed him, survived, and ultimately was able to return to duty. She was off duty and heading home after a softball game and a brief stop at the station to check her work assignment. According to the article I linked to:
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Except for psychological stops (I don't like getting shot so I'll stop) alluded to in post 37, to physiologically stop someone requires tissue damage: significant trauma to the CNS, the breaking of major skeletal support structures or incapacitation from significant blood loss. At the velocity/energy levels of most handgun cartridges, any tissue damage will come only from direct contact between the bullet and the tissue. So a handgun bullet passing through a blood rich organ will damage the tissue it actually touches as it passes through, and a larger caliber bullet penetrating more deeply will damage more tissue than a smaller caliber bullet penetrating less -- thus causing more rapid blood loss. So yes, shot placement is important, but a small caliber bullet not penetrating very deeply will, even when well placed, still be producing only a modest amount of tissue damage compared with something larger. So --
One can make his choice, decide what's important to him and what he's willing to give up to get. But one should not delude himself into believing that a .22 will be just as good as a .45 or even 9mm for self defense.
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October 6, 2012, 10:18 AM | #45 | |
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Beyond that, I can understand why high-speed low-drag types employ the .45, but for the low-speed high-drag shooter like myself, who doesn't reload, who, while not having to work a corner to afford a range trip or anything, does appreciate that 9mm's cheaper to practice with than .45, and who simply shoots 9mm quickly better than he does .45, I just don't see the upside. |
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October 6, 2012, 11:08 AM | #46 |
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Most service calibers are going to perform to nearly the same standard. High energy rounds such as the 10mm, 357 Sig and the various magnums "may" give you a significant advantage but may not depending one your proficiency with them.
The real answer is if you want to carry a 9mm carry a 9mm, but master the weapon. You must be able to run it without conscious thought. You must be able to make decisive hits while moving off the X. It takes training and practice to do that. I have 3 Glocks that I use, 2 came in 40 and one in 357 Sig. I convert the 27 and 23 to 9mm and 357 Sig as it suits my needs and carry the 357 Sig. For a gun I am going to want in a fight its a hi-cap. You may feel fine with 5, but not I. Your tactics and proficiency are more important than caliber or platform. Every situation is different, that is another compromise and your carry system must encompass as many variables as possible to ensure success.
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October 7, 2012, 10:49 AM | #47 | ||
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October 7, 2012, 12:30 PM | #48 |
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The chart results can be off because we have no idea what type bullets were used in any of the loads also.
I agree with your point about loads. Use heavy, non, or slow expanding bullets in the 357, and lighter, faster, fast expanding bullets in the 44, and I'd bet that the results would be opposite what they now show. Bullet type makes a difference in the results. The discussion is interesting, but for me, people are down the list for my use or reasons for having a pistol around. I'm out in the hills far more than in a town. I carry 44's and 45 Colts. I use the same guns wherever I go, just dont use the heavy loads when not in the hills. I've shot enough game with them I have a good idea how they'll work on whatever else I may need to shoot. May not be "best", but I'm used to them and shoot them well. I also really really dont like the muzzle blast of a 357.
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"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt- Last edited by Malamute; October 7, 2012 at 12:39 PM. |
October 7, 2012, 01:19 PM | #49 |
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Any info provided by Chuck Hawks should be taken with a grain of salt........
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October 7, 2012, 02:57 PM | #50 |
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There's a difference between stopping a threat, and killing. many times a threat will be stopped without a dead body hitting the ground. It is up to the determination of the threat.
Shot placement, multiple COM/CNS hits, and persistance are all preferred reguardless of caliber. I like the 9mm with the capability of faster recoil recovery and follow-up shots. I think three 9mm holes in a target trump 2-45 holes in the same time frame. Last edited by KenW.; October 7, 2012 at 03:11 PM. |
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