Just how well can a budget AR shoot--compared to a bolt gun

[stagpanther]

Several interesting discussions going on in this forum have posed some interesting questions that rank right up there with what is the meaning of life--so I thought I'd do a little exercise for myself to see if I could get some answers.

First--how well does the PSA AR 47 handle budget steel case ammo?
Second--can a budget AR using budget ammo shoot MOA off the shelf (and compete with a bolt gun)?

The answer to the first question is--not very well. For my tests I went to wally world and bought a box of tula 122 FMJ--the steel case lacquered stuff--and a box winnie 123 gr fmj. both boxes were pretty gnarly and judging from the tarnish stains on the winnie stuff my guess is they had been sitting there for quite some time.

The tula stuff would only fire about half the time--even when the primers showed solid strikes from the pin they just wouldn't go. This rapidly went from an accuracy test to just how many chamberings would it take to get the cartridge to fire--some of them took 3 tries to get to fire. Groupings--such as they were with cartridges that had cycled two or three times--were in the 4" range. The rest of the stuff will be relegated to my AK--I wouldn't recommend using it in an AR 47--unless maybe you're the kind of person that also likes filling your Ferrari with regular gas.

Next up were the winnie cartridges, with no cleaning or cool-down from the tula stuff I got this:



I did pull the flyer at the bottom--so this is a "cheat cherry-pick group" and is not conclusive evidence. lol

But consider this; this is budget factory ammo, shot with a budget AR carbine chambered to arguably one of the most inaccurate semi-auto cartridges there is. This is a 16" carbine with no free-float foreend and the scope is more of a tactical red-dot than a fine cross-hair reticle 3 x 9 that you typically find on a sporter bolt gun--which is usually going to have a barrel length of 20" or better.



Let the flames begin!

[ARqueen15]

Not much in the way of flames except hopefully to burn down a long-standing urban myth that semi-auto's are inherently inaccurate/inferior and the age old straw man that having a semi-auto means you 'spray and pray'. I blame it on the A-Team

The AR is an inherently accurate design and off the shelf variants, even the QA-optional stuff coming out of PSA, reflect that. 1 MOA is hardly unusual with good ammo and proper shooting technique. Mind you, you're not even shooting a round the original design was built around yet it still works. By the way, I think a good AR should handle steel-cased ammo but well, PSA...


Yes it is a DI-system which isn't housetrained, so to speak, but it still works if the key parts are kept lubricated. They're also a lot more durable than people think, ask me how I know

From a value, versatility, and standpoint right now, I just don't see anything that compares to AR's right now where you get a high quality firearm with a design that's been improved over half a century and will shoot at or close to MOA for $500, last you thousands of rounds, and can easily be reconfigured to a whole new caliber by pulling 2 pins apart.

[stagpanther]

ask me how I know

OK--I'll bite--how do you know?

[railroader]

As for the light strikes with Tula ammo my 762x39 Radical Arms rifle did the same thing. I ordered a slightly longer firing pin which fixed the issue. Runs great now with Tula. I got my firing pin here. http://www.blackriflearms.com/AR-762...g-Pin_p_9.html

[Danoobie]

A lot of the "accurate bolt gun" hype has two sources. First,
the bolt gun generally has either hunting or MOA shooting
as it's primary goal, as do their owners. Second, each round is
manually loaded, at a much slower rate than the average
M-4gery. Many guys with the ARs either are inexperienced,
impatient, careless, or complacent, and they are just pounding
out round after round in semi-auto.

But a lot of guys have AR15s which are more accurate than their
bolt guns. I'm one of them.

[hdwhit]

stagpanther wrote:
Just how well can a budget AR shoot--compared to a bolt gun

In my experience, the budget AR, just like the current generation of budget bolt guns, is as accurate as the vast majority of shooters can attain.

I have an acquaintance that I have shot with at various informal outdoor ranges. He has to be within 2 yards (yes, 6 feet) of the target to get all of his rounds within the black part of the 6 inch diameter target circle. Yet, talk to him about guns and he's all about the "inherent accuracy" of the gun and whether it can shoot "sub-MOA". The guy is shooting about 250 MOA and he's concerned about having a gun capable of "sub-MOA"?

-- Never underestimate the power of human credulity.

Many more people post on anonymous internet chat forums about "sub-MOA" than are actually able to attain it. I'm somewhere between a 3 and 4 MOA shooter and most of my friends consider me to be a very good shot because the best they can do is between 8 and 12 MOA. I think this is representative of most shooters. And if so, then pretty much any rifle is going to be more accurate than the person who handles it.

[stagpanther]

As for the light strikes with Tula ammo my 762x39 Radical Arms rifle did the same thing. I ordered a slightly longer firing pin which fixed the issue. Runs great now with Tula. I got my firing pin here. http://www.blackriflearms.com/AR-762...g-Pin_p_9.html

Already thought about that--any issues with piercing "conventional" ammo primers?

[TXAZ]

The rifle has a precision component to it, but so does the ammo. 7.62x39 has never been considered a precision round like a .338 Lapua or .416 Barrett.

[Mobuck]

I own a Remington 799(?) in 7.62x39 and shot a few steel case loads through it. The only steel case ammo that is worthwhile is the Hornady SST. The common Euro-bloc stuff isn't worth the time so I agree with your estimation of the potential from any platform. I have compared the bolt action side by side with a nearly new Oly 7.62x39 AR and the AR was more accurate with every load tested. While the bolt action is more accurate than either of my SKS rifles, it's not a "tack driver" by any stretch of the term. It IS cute and a wee bit unusual so I'm keeping it for occasional use with the supply of PPU round nose SP ammo but it's not anything to brag on accuracy wise-that's reserved for the AR's.

[bfoosh006]

I've got a few comments....

First the Tula ammo... you probably were get horribly inconsistent ignition from those primer strikes... so you might get better results after the "better" firing pin.

That doesn't mean Tula will be match grade ammo... but better groups from proper ( dang milspec Russian primers ) ignition.



As for the bolt action v. AR argument... AR's have come a LONG way since that argument was first made...

Much better barrels , ammo, better understanding on how to accurately assemble / manufacture AR's... etc... so the fact is an AR is capable of very good accuracy.

Earlier Bolt actions rarely saw groups more then 3-5 shots as well... so people would use that as their reference point v. the Earlier AR's.


Lets fast forward to current state of the Art Bolt actions and AR's...

A well built AR is easily capable of sub MOA groups. For a moderate cost. I have done it numerous times.

A well built bolt action is also fully capable of sub MOA groups... Look at the Ruger Precision rifle.... the price point of that rifle is shocking, given its accuracy level.


All said, we are living in a Golden age of firearms....

[mavracer]

Stag,
You touch on many of the points why the myth that a bolt is just automatically more accurate than a AR permeates on the internet.
Most don't shoot cheap steel case ammo in bolts.
Bolts get a 3-9X with fine crosshairs not red dots and busy tactical optics.
I see more 3 shot groups with bolts than with ARs as a general rule.
And a 6# plus Mil spec trigger takes a lot more trigger discipline than a 3# Savage accu trigger.

[stagpanther]

More than that--I have two safes full of AR's I've built--everyone one of them--except this one--having free-float handguards, low triggerpull weight custom trigger groups and superior mounts and optics. They are all sub-MOA shooters with tuned cartridges but that .5 MOA comes at a cost of 3 to 5 times what this lowly beast cost me--at least within the close range the 7.62 x 39 is effective at. Sure gave me some food for thought. LOL

[FrankenMauser]

I had one 'budget' AR that shot well.
I also have one budget barrel that shoots very well.

But the others ... not so much.

Then again... My 'budget' .223 bolt gun didn't shoot all that well, either.


It's luck of the draw when you go cheap.

[armoredman]

I am looking at PSA for my very first AR, so this is encouraging.

[RaySendero]

One thing that I've found really helps me shoot better with bolt rifle is
to do a "trigger job" or to replace the trigger entirely.

So how's the trigger on those ARs?

[stagpanther]

One thing that I've found really helps me shoot better with bolt rifle is
to do a "trigger job" or to replace the trigger entirely.

So how's the trigger on those ARs?
__________________
Ray

I bought the upper and assembled the lower myself. However--I have used a stock mil-spec PSA trigger group before (with a little simple modifications of my own) and found them to be a step above your average stock group--they have better finishing and polished surfaces--which translates into slightly less grittiness and cleaner breaking. I put a single stage James Madison Saber trigger into my lower build on this rifle which breaks at 4 lbs--so in terms of reducing the over-all pull it's not really all that noticeable over a stock mil-spec trigger in my opinion. What is noticeable is the shorter over-travel and reset, as well as a sharper, cleaner break.

[rickyrick]

I found the M16A1/A2 to be surprisingly accurate compared to stories I had heard prior to joining. I didn't shoot the M4 as well but well enough; a good trade off when geared up in a hummer.
My most accurate AR is an El Cheapo Loco carbine build with the lowest priced Anderson carbine barrel of the time: a carbine gassed, unlined, 4150 molly. CMMG LPK, Aero bolt, Aero gas block, cheapest DPMS hand guard, whatever the cheapest Magpul stock and a free birdcage flash hider and reconstituted crush washer.... phew, I'm out of breath, but you get the point.

[mavracer]

They are all sub-MOA shooters with tuned cartridges but that .5 MOA comes at a cost of 3 to 5 times what this lowly beast cost me--

Really no need to spend that much to get sub MOA accuracy, you really only need to splurge on barrel,trigger and optics after that most of the high dollar stuff doesn't affect accuracy at all.
And even with barrels, triggers and optics you reach a point of diminishing returns at a fairly low price.

[stagpanther]

Very true Mav. This little experiment has spun off into yet another experiment (like I need an excuse, right?) PSA has an PA 10 upper with BCG and 18" nitrided barrel for $299 (free shipping to boot) at the moment--it too has conventional front site post pinned to the barrel and glacier guard. I'm going to pop this on one of my lowers and compare it to my LR308 SASS which ran me a cool $2400 when I bought it when it first came out.

[mavracer]

I had a build centered around a DPMS SASS barrel and wasn't ever happy with it turned out to be a scope problem anyway long story short caught a 14.7" PSA 308 barrel on sale for $99 shipped put a Burris 1-4x TAC30 on it and have been very happy with it, it was close to MOA on it's maiden voyage with 168gr Prvi. Not bad for my short range AR10
Ended up building a 24" bull 1 in 7 twist 243 for a long range AR10

[stagpanther]

I've done 4 other AR 10 builds and they all shoot great--as does the SASS which has shot MOA out to 300 yds easy with good factory ammo--I'm just curious how this budget set-up does compared to it--in the meantime--I'm about to go out and try some new x 39 loads. Probably should wait--we're getting winds on the coast from Jose and it's foggy drizzly--but hey--I'm bored. : )

[mavracer]

A bad day shooting > a good day at work

[T. O'Heir]

"...long-standing urban myth..." Isn't urban or a myth. The operative word is 'Inherently'. None of it has anything to so with AR's. It's all semi-auto's that are inherently less accurate than bolt actions.
The A-Team used Mini-14's. Mini-14's are inherently inaccurate. And 'The A-Team' was TV. Not reality.

[stagpanther]

Conditions were not ideal--gusty winds with drizzle and fog but still fun. I could immediately tell the CFE is sending the projectiles out faster by the felt recoil--though I've yet to chrony them.

Here's one of the better groups of the remmie stuff, the bullets themselves had lots of blemishes on them so I'm pretty happy over-all. I'll fine tune some secondary loads since this gun is in serious running to be my woods hunting gun when the season opens in just over a month.



PS--the most remarkable thing about this powder so far that I noticed--it runs very cool--my barrel never seemed to get much past warm even when firing shots spaced 30 to 60 seconds apart.

[stagpanther]

And 'The A-Team' was TV. Not reality.

I never watched that show growing up--I guess I led a deprived childhood.