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Old August 20, 2017, 02:46 PM   #26
carguychris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
There is no such thing as a "Class III license".
I know that. It was a case of poor wording. Post corrected.
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Old August 20, 2017, 04:08 PM   #27
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Quote:
carguychris
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
There is no such thing as a "Class III license".
I know that. It was a case of poor wording. Post corrected.
Still wrong.
No such thing as "Class III" anything.

"Class 3" is one of three Special Occupational Tax classifications that ATF uses for those who deal, manufacture or import NFA firearms.
Class 1 - Importer of Firearms
Class 1 - Importer of Firearms (Reduced)*
Class 2 - Manufacturer of Firearms
Class 2 - Manufacturer of Firearms (Reduced)*
Class 3 - Dealer in Firearms

If your local gun dealer is licensed as a manufacturer then NOTHING he does involves "Class 3"........he would be a "Class 2" SOT.
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Old August 21, 2017, 02:58 PM   #28
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What do you think? My first thoughts about this design, is that the "magazine chamber", which chamber the round and is inserted into the main barrel, can't be to thin, because it will expand and get welded in place.

How thin can it be made? Would it be possible to make it as thin as 0,5mm? Which steel (or other metal/material) should i use for it? And how come that a brass cartridge don't get stuck in the chamber?
There isn't enough detail in your drawings or descriptions to have any idea whether these things would be functional. I'm not trying to be hard on you, but you just give the impression that you haven't thought things through in any realistic way. And to be completely frank, some of your questions make me wonder if you have any understanding of how guns and ammo work.

Please don't try to build anything until you know what you are doing, with regards to both the firearm and the law.
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Old August 21, 2017, 07:01 PM   #29
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Monday,

What would keep the bullets from just falling out of your "harmonica" mag? What would keep your mag inserted into the chamber and what would lock it in place to control the recoil? A locked breech is not a necessity with such a light round, but usually, the recoil is being used to eject the round and cock the hammer/striker for the next shot, while the recoil spring loads the next round.

You really should go back to the question... What does this do that other guns don't do, AND does it do it BETTER? What is the advantage?
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Old August 21, 2017, 07:44 PM   #30
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Ok - so you went from the Duckfoot to the Harmoica..... ...



Attached Images
File Type: jpg duckfoot2.jpg (21.7 KB, 112 views)
File Type: jpg harmonica.jpg (25.3 KB, 114 views)
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Old August 22, 2017, 09:13 AM   #31
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The harmonica design looks horrendous! What benefit would that have? I think carrying it would be very unwieldy. I'm guessing that was pre-revolver? As for the duckfoot, it looks like it would fire all four shots at once. I guess if you were attacked by multiple assailants, it could be helpful, but what if they weren't lined up perfectly with the barrels? What if there were innocents (or loved ones) that were nearby? They other issues is reloading would take a while. I think I'll stick to my single barrel, semi-automatic pistol.
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Old August 22, 2017, 12:19 PM   #32
carguychris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426
I'm guessing [the harmonica] was pre-revolver?
Yes. Revolvers basically made them obsolete.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426
As for the duckfoot, it looks like it would fire all four shots at once.
My understanding is that they generally did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426
I guess if you were attacked by multiple assailants, it could be helpful, but what if they weren't lined up perfectly with the barrels? What if there were innocents (or loved ones) that were nearby?
My recollection is that the duckfoot was designed as a naval weapon at a time when boarding enemy ships was a commonplace tactic, and those ships were generally small. Picture yourself standing on the deck of an old-time wooden sailing ship with a bunch of enemy sailors rushing at you with sabers and pikes. The ability to hit more than one of them is the whole idea. It's assumed that there are no innocent bystanders aboard an enemy warship.

The weapon is not meant to be aimed so much as pointed in the enemy's general direction inside 10 yds or so, hence the lack of sights and the arrayed barrels. The weapon is not meant to be reloaded on the fly, but rather used as a bludgeon after firing, or discarded as you draw your own saber.

IIRC these were historically used as personal-defense weapons in some cases, generally at across-the-card-table distances, but yes, the possibility of hitting innocent bystanders was a reason that they never became very popular in this application.
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Old August 22, 2017, 02:00 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426 View Post
Monday,

What would keep the bullets from just falling out of your "harmonica" mag? What would keep your mag inserted into the chamber and what would lock it in place to control the recoil? A locked breech is not a necessity with such a light round, but usually, the recoil is being used to eject the round and cock the hammer/striker for the next shot, while the recoil spring loads the next round.

You really should go back to the question... What does this do that other guns don't do, AND does it do it BETTER? What is the advantage?
The cartridge chamber of the magazine has to be tight enough, so the rounds won't easily fall out, otherwise some kind of protection could be used in order to keep them in place. You insert the magazine only when you wan't to fire the gun btw.

Well, the magazine has to be pulled forward in the direction towards the muzzle, to chamber the round in the barrel, which you want to fire. So the round is inserted in both the magazine and the barrel when fired. (The magazine chamber is inserted in the barrel)

In that way it will be inline with the barrel and keep it inserted. However, when you wan't to fire the next round, you simply pull the magazine backwards, to realse the magazine/roundchamber, and then you can pull the magazine left/forward. You can either chamber a new round or realease the magazine.

The firing pin will lock the breech, like this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rp-Igxxq8Lw The firing pin is attached to the bolt.

My gun has the same concept, the only difference is the harmonica mag, which you insert at the cartridge insert/exit of the breech. And the breech has to have two of those holes, just like the hormonica gun.

The advantage of the magazine is that you can easy and fast put a new round to fire, instead of pulling out the fired one and pull in a new by hand.

Against my old design, the advtange is that the gun itself can be made more compact and i guess chamber more rounds in the magazine, but at the same time it will take longer to fire my second design than my first design.

Last edited by Monday; August 22, 2017 at 02:10 PM.
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Old August 23, 2017, 01:32 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monday
The cartridge chamber of the magazine has to be tight enough, so the rounds won't easily fall out, otherwise some kind of protection could be used in order to keep them in place. You insert the magazine only when you wan't to fire the gun btw.

Well, the magazine has to be pulled forward in the direction towards the muzzle, to chamber the round in the barrel, which you want to fire. So the round is inserted in both the magazine and the barrel when fired. (The magazine chamber is inserted in the barrel)

In that way it will be inline with the barrel and keep it inserted. However, when you wan't to fire the next round, you simply pull the magazine backwards, to realse the magazine/roundchamber, and then you can pull the magazine left/forward. You can either chamber a new round or realease the magazine.

The firing pin will lock the breech, like this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rp-Igxxq8Lw The firing pin is attached to the bolt.

My gun has the same concept, the only difference is the harmonica mag, which you insert at the cartridge insert/exit of the breech. And the breech has to have two of those holes, just like the hormonica gun.

The advantage of the magazine is that you can easy and fast put a new round to fire, instead of pulling out the fired one and pull in a new by hand.

Against my old design, the advtange is that the gun itself can be made more compact and i guess chamber more rounds in the magazine, but at the same time it will take longer to fire my second design than my first design.
Hi Monday,

I would have to reiterate my point, which would be WHY??? What does this design resolve? Most people prefer to carry their guns loaded and ready to use. I would have to grab the gun, grab the mag, insert it, and then push it forward to shoot it? Why in the world would I do that when I can buy something, probably way cheaper than you can make this, and probably far more reliable. If the bullets are tight in the mag, I imagine I would have to stick a rod to eject them from the other side. Each round would have to be manually moved into place, which would take time. As carguychris stated, revolvers made harmonica mags obsolete.

What if I told you I had an invention that was basically a spade tip blade mounted onto a rod. Let's say that rod had a hole that allowed a rod to be inserted into it, so that it could be spun. And then let's say there was a thing that allowed you put pressure on the rod. The device would be used for drilling holes. The practical response would be just buy a drill and call it a day. While I am trying hard not to stifle creativity, you need to see what is on the market and create something that either does not exist (that serves a purpose) or improves upon a product. That should be the basis for when you design something.
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Old August 23, 2017, 01:52 PM   #35
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In an attempt to resolve (or increase) some confusion, here is the full federal license/tax stamp. I believe this is still accurate, but if anyone sees an error, let me know.
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Federal Firearms Licenses (FFL’s) are licenses issued by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (part of the DOJ). With some exceptions, an FFL is required in order to manufacture, import or deal in firearms in the U.S. There are 9 kinds of FFL, generally referred to as “Types”, and three kinds of Special Occupational Tax to allow the holder of an FFL to import, deal in or manufacture Title II firearms (see below). A license to import or manufacture firearms includes the authority to deal in that type of firearms; that allows importers and manufacturers to deal directly with the public where otherwise permitted.

There are two basic kinds of firearms, differentiated by the Titles (sections) of the Gun Control Act which covers them. Ordinary rifles, shotguns and handguns are covered under Title I, and commonly called “Title I firearms”. Other firearms, such as machineguns, short barreled rifles and short barreled shotguns, are covered under Title II and commonly called Title II firearms or “National Firearms Act” (NFA) firearms from the older name of the law. That category includes some items legally designated as “firearms” for the purpose of the law; those items include silencers (suppressors), some types of disguised firearms, and devices intended to change the nature of a firearm, such as a converter to make a machinegun from a semi-automatic rifle.

The Special Occupational Tax (SOT) is a category of tax required for importing, dealing in, or manufacturing, firearms that are controlled under Title II of the Gun Control Act. The three kinds of SOT are referred to using the term “Class”. That the SOT has been paid is indicated by a tax stamp (a literal paper stamp) which is attached to the FFL, so an SOT can only be paid by someone who already has an appropriate FFL. Here are the lists:

Federal Firearms License:

Type 1 – Dealer in Title I firearms.
Type 2 – Dealer in Title I firearms doing business as a pawnbroker.
Type 3 – Licensed collector of Curios and Relics (but not a dealer).
Type 6 – Licensed maker of ammunition and reloading components other than Armor Piercing ammunition.
Type 7 – Manufacturer of Title I firearms, ammunition and ammunition components, but not Title II firearms, Destructive Devices, or Armor Piercing ammunition.
Type 8 – Importer Title I firearms and ammunition.
Type 9 – Dealer in Title I firearms, including Destructive Devices but no other Title II items.
Type 10 – Manufacturer of Title I firearms, ammunition and ammunition components, including Destructive Devices, but no other Title II items and not Armor Piercing Ammunition.
Type 11 – Importer of Title I firearms, ammunition and Destructive Devices, but no other Title II items.

Special Occupational Tax:

Class 1 SOT - Importer of Title II (NFA) firearms.
Class 2 SOT – Manufacturer of Title II firearms.
Class 3 SOT – Dealer in Title II firearms.

To obtain a Class 1 SOT stamp, the applicant must have a Type 8 or 11 FFL.
To obtain a Class 2 SOT stamp, the applicant must have a Type 7 or 10 FFL.
To obtain a Class 3 SOT stamp, the applicant must have a Type 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, or 11 FFL.

Jim
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Old August 25, 2017, 06:57 AM   #36
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The design in the picture is very similar to a 2-shot FOB gun, but with more chambers. You can see one here: http://www.engineeredbypow.com/ , but it's only on their front page; you will have to click the picture-arrow a couple of times until you see a device with two buttons and two protruding firing pins - bass and steel (the barrel piece isn't shown). I don't see that they actually have any more for sale. If it fires cartridges, it would be considered an AOW. This company got around this by configuring the barrel piece to fire bb's using primers. If you were to cut and mill another piece of barstock to accept .22 cartridges, then it would be an AOW.

I believe the device was originally produced somewhere in Russia or Eastern Europe. They were being imported and made (illegally) in the UK to get around the restrictive gun laws there and the UK has been trying to eradicate them.

I bought one because I was intrigued by the design (configured for primer and bb); I've never tried to fire it, however. It is actually pretty good quality. It is bigger and heavier than you might think, and is only configured for 2-shots.

Being familiar with this device, I think it would be too big to have as many barrels/chambers as the OP indicates in his device (whether AOW or not), especially if the barrels are going to be straight across - it would end up being about the size of a brick!

There are some 4-shot pepper box designs for .22lr that are very compact and date back to the late 1800's. I have a COP .357 which I feel is a very nicely designed higher-power pepperbox.

Last edited by Skans; August 25, 2017 at 07:13 AM.
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Old August 25, 2017, 08:16 PM   #37
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Quote:
James K .......That the SOT has been paid is indicated by a tax stamp (a literal paper stamp) which is attached to the FFL...
Whoever wrote that has never held an FFL or an SOT.
An SOT is an 8.5"x11" sheet of paper that is NEVER affixed to the FFL.
Below is a copy of an SOT.
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Old August 26, 2017, 09:36 PM   #38
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Thanks, Tom That has changed, then, and I appreciate the info. But I can assure you that not too long ago, the stamp really was a stamp.

Jim
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Old August 27, 2017, 05:52 PM   #39
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Everyone else seems to believe that Monday is serious in his posts, so I will just back out of here and just enjoy the exchanges
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