CCW Takes On Bank Robber - Page 2

Vergeltung · January 7, 2009, 09:30 AM

hero, no question. all the monday morning QBs are a bunch of bloody mollys.

freakintoguns · January 7, 2009, 10:01 AM

one less scumbag on the street to worry about. Cheers to that man for taking care of the problem

Wagonman · January 7, 2009, 05:02 PM

I find it troubling that on a pro gun forum that people are bagging on this guy. I have more to say but am running late for work.

Deet · January 7, 2009, 05:06 PM

He is a hero.

Stevie-Ray · January 7, 2009, 06:31 PM

Nice work. He stopped a crime and doesn't have to stay awake all night thinking about how he shot a man that didn't really have a bomb. Win-win.

BuckHammer · January 7, 2009, 09:10 PM

The guy's a hero to the bank customers, depositors, staff, and stockholders. He's also a hero to the police, who don't have to waste money and resources catching the guy, so he's also a hero to taxpayers. Plus, with free hot dogs and cheaper gas, he's a hero to his local Sunoco station customers.

Cellfone · January 7, 2009, 10:49 PM

Thumbs up to this guy. He's a definitely a hero. FREE HOTDOGS!!!!!!! This also sends a message to any would be robbers to think twice about hitting this guy's Sunoco station. FREE HOTDOGS!!!!!

txbirddog · January 9, 2009, 02:10 AM

This is called "Tactics and Training" My take is this: If you say, "I have a bomb", that is a direct threat on my life,,,,just the same as pointing a gun at me or people I love,,,,Threat eliminated.

While we are sitting here in our nice homes,,,,playing scenarios and second guessing,,,,he made a decision,,,,if you can't make a decision,,,,immediately and with conviction,,,,you are better off leaving your gun at home. Your indecision will get more people killed than taking action,,,if you all tossing out that he could have triggered the bomb,,,,he could have done it anyway or it could have gone off inadvertenly as many homemade bombs do.

My final point is this,,,,get the mindset to be able to act so if you haveto you can!!!!! If you spend too much time thinking about collateral damage,,,,that's what you will get.

huna koa · January 9, 2009, 08:34 AM

""yes he was willing to do what others wouldn't. Be I see it that he potentially put a lot of other innocent people at risk""---THAT DID NOT HAPPEN; we had a good outcome, he had a license to carry and he did what he had to do. The BG is lucky he didn't get a couple of holes in his thinking cap; those who legally carry and have been trained by Law Enforcement understand the responsibilities of CCW.

PhoenixConflagration · January 9, 2009, 09:34 AM

The only way any bomb could have gone off is if the man detonated it (that's preventable with quick and overwhelming action) or if he had a 'dead man switch' (which would be visually obvious). The possibility that the gunfire itself would have set off the bomb is fairly low as so unstable a bomb probably wouldn't have made it out of the guy's house and to the bank. Yes the shooter took a risk, but life is a series of mitigated or unmitigated risks. They refer to that scientifically as TIME.

Joat · January 9, 2009, 11:24 AM

Hero.

The man saw the situation, recognized the threat, and neutralized the threat. He was trained and prepared to deal with the unexpected and did so with no physical harm to bystanders.
"I have a bomb." is a threat of lethal force. If the shooter believed that the robber had the means and intent to carry through with his threats, it is a valid threat to life and limb. Just because he didn't have a bomb (or in other words, the gun was a toy) does not remove the fact that the perceived threat to life is untrue. He reacted to the threat and the belief that his life, and others lives, were in immediate danger, and removed the threat.

Joat

Grimlok · January 9, 2009, 04:40 PM

Dec. 2008 issue of Tactical Weapons has an article about a man who freaks out on a jetliner after it has been boarded.

The man screams 'I have a bomb' and waves a backpack around as he runs to the exit of the jet. An Air Marshal pursues him out of the jet and shoots him. Turns out he didn't actually have a bomb.

Threat made - Threat eliminated.

Only difference I see is one was a LEO and the other a CCW holder. I think the bank bomber is lucky to still be breathing.

Right or wrong, I've always been a believer in "All's well that ends well".

BuckHammer · January 9, 2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackflags

lets say I have a grenade in each hand, both with pins pulled.

It's worth noting that blackflags' scenario is not what happened.

Nnobby45 · January 9, 2009, 05:13 PM

Quote:

I for one HATE monday morning quarterbacking. The guy saw the play and he made it. I think more stories like this should get out.

I agree. A man had seconds to make a decision. His criticizers had hundreds of thousands of seconds to second guess him.

Quote:

..... I see it that he potentially put a lot of other innocent people at risk.

Did you happen to notice that the samaritan used enough restraint to handle the matter without firing a shot?

This is similar to (though admittedly not as bad) as the logic used by anti's to prevent teachers from being armed, since a teacher may accidentally hit one of the students being shot with certainty by the gunman. The possible risk the teacher imposes is completely unacceptable, while the risk posed by the gunman isn't part of their argument----how could it be?

Stevie-Ray · January 9, 2009, 06:48 PM

Quote:

lets say I have a grenade in each hand, both with pins pulled. I'm in a crowded bank..what do you do? I'm guessing most would say they would shoot, therefore I drop the grenades, killing/maiming many...but hey, the threat was stopped, right?

Then I'd say you're a lot dumber than even Martin Short in 3 Fugitives and didn't even take into consideration how you were going to carry any money out.

Scott Free · January 9, 2009, 11:06 PM

If a lot more people carried guns, and a lot more people were willing to do what this man did, there wouldn't be bank robbers. Anytime a cop confronts a BG at a bank, he also is putting all others in the bank in jeopardy at the same time. What if the BG shoots someone? What if the cop accidentally shoots an innocent? We could ask our cops to allow robberies to continue, and to only confront them after the bad guys are far away from bystanders, I suppose. Cops or civilians who stop robberies are heroes.

Erik · January 10, 2009, 02:00 AM

Another "awesome" and "hero" comment. Great job.

Gazdik · January 12, 2009, 05:11 AM

Hero,hero,hero...Good for him!!

Lavid2002 · January 12, 2009, 06:45 AM

Quote:

would the guy be a hero if the bg did have a bomb, it goes off killing or injuring many people?

Pessimistic BOOOOO!

Khaot1c · January 12, 2009, 07:27 AM

When a CW is taking on a BG at any point in time, there is always the potential for bad things to happen. Obviously, the good guys are always at the disadvantage. I mean, the BG goes into the store with the intent to do ill. Good guys have to first react to the enviornment and then make assesments given the information given right?
If a guy says "I have a bomb" that's an end all statement to me because it's a weapon. There were points made about it being able to do more damage and kill more people than if it were just a gun, but thats true and not true. Whatever the mindset of the BG, property damage is the colateral effect to the BG main intent and stopping property damage should never be a reason to draw on a BG. So, in my opinion we're down to stopping the bad guys from hurting/killing good guys. If the guy were carying any kind of gun, he could achive the same thing as a bomb, but it woudl take more trigger pulls (and thus more time) to hurt the same amount of innocent people as ONE trigger pull on his bomb.
So yes, hearing "I HAVE A BOMB" is reason enough for a CW to take action.

BillCA · January 12, 2009, 08:15 AM

Let us review.

Man enters bank and attempts to rob it with a note saying he has a bomb. He even informs another customer "I have a bomb".

Now we initiate the grey cells in turbocharged mode. Is there any evidence he has a bomb? Does he appear to have a deadman switch or a pushbutton? Does he appear lucid, focused and capable of carrying out the threat? Does it appear that he has any accomplices you can see?

Depending on the above assessment you take a course of action. As I see it, these actions are:

Do nothing, bide your time and take action when/if necessary.
Draw and shoot him in the head.
Draw and at gunpoint demand to see his hands or otherwise secure him.
Run out of the bank screaming like a little girl.

If he holds a deadman switch (or Blackflags' red-herring with two grenades) then biding your time is most likely correct. You don't reveal your armed status and if the time comes, you terminate him quickly.

Please note that someone who says "I have a bomb" and indicates it is strapped to his body is NOT the same as a man saying he has a gun or will kill you. The bomber is saying I want my demands met and I'm willing to die to get what I want, plus killing or maiming anyone around.

lakebilly · January 13, 2009, 07:54 AM

good posts! i think that the situation should dictate the response and having just one option; NUCLEAR and stating that option in this forum can be problematical to a CCW. working in bars and taking many self defense classes, i hear too many people saying " if this happens, i'll do this....
assess the threat and have a measured response. given that you have practiced many situations many ways will have a better chance for a CCW to be a Godsend than a menace.
The proportion of CCW citizens is getting smaller. If everyone that had the right to carry, did carry, and it was a well know fact, the "successful probabilities" of pulling this off is more likely to dissuade a 'thinking person', 'thinking person' from thinking about doing it. Dealing with a desperate person who believes he has only one option; steal or perish, would certainly call for deliberate measure.
Every situation is different with it's own level of threat. Only you can assess the situation YOUR in. My plug would be for more CCW's and more training for all kinds of threats. The amount of money we throw @ crimefighting might be well spent in training citizens too.
I am sure this will be a perpetual topic.

B.N.Real · January 14, 2009, 07:05 AM

Awesome.

Nice to see a Middle Eastern American portrayed correctly for once.

Nice job there,fellow citizen.

Wagonman · January 14, 2009, 01:07 PM

+1 B.N.

cjw3cma · January 14, 2009, 07:42 PM

Quote:

lets say I have a grenade in each hand, both with pins pulled. I'm in a crowded bank..what do you do?

RUN AWAY !!!!!!!!!!

January 7, 2009, 09:30 AM	#26
Vergeltung Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: near NYC, USA Posts: 292	hero, no question. all the monday morning QBs are a bunch of bloody mollys. __________________ *Tuitio Fidei et Obsequium Pauperum*

January 7, 2009, 05:06 PM	#29
Deet Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2008 Location: INDIANA Posts: 191	He is a hero. __________________ Ruger P95, GP100, KelTec P11, Mossberg 500, Mosin Nagant 91/30, S&W M&P 45

January 7, 2009, 06:31 PM	#30
Stevie-Ray Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: The shores of Lake Huron Posts: 4,783	Nice work. He stopped a crime and doesn't have to stay awake all night thinking about how he shot a man that didn't really have a bomb. Win-win. __________________ Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.

January 7, 2009, 09:10 PM	#31
BuckHammer Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 286	The guy's a hero to the bank customers, depositors, staff, and stockholders. He's also a hero to the police, who don't have to waste money and resources catching the guy, so he's also a hero to taxpayers. Plus, with free hot dogs and cheaper gas, he's a hero to his local Sunoco station customers. __________________ Luck runs out. Boiler Up! Last edited by BuckHammer; January 7, 2009 at 09:13 PM. Reason: clarification

January 9, 2009, 08:34 AM	#34
huna koa Junior Member Join Date: November 8, 2008 Location: west coast Posts: 2	coulda-woulda-shoulda- ""yes he was willing to do what others wouldn't. Be I see it that he potentially put a lot of other innocent people at risk""---THAT DID NOT HAPPEN; we had a good outcome, he had a license to carry and he did what he had to do. The BG is lucky he didn't get a couple of holes in his thinking cap; those who legally carry and have been trained by Law Enforcement understand the responsibilities of CCW.

January 7, 2009, 10:01 AM	#27
freakintoguns Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2008 Posts: 496	one less scumbag on the street to worry about. Cheers to that man for taking care of the problem

January 7, 2009, 05:02 PM	#28
Wagonman Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,014	I find it troubling that on a pro gun forum that people are bagging on this guy. I have more to say but am running late for work.

January 7, 2009, 10:49 PM	#32
Cellfone Junior Member Join Date: October 29, 2006 Posts: 11	Thumbs up to this guy. He's a definitely a hero. FREE HOTDOGS!!!!!!! This also sends a message to any would be robbers to think twice about hitting this guy's Sunoco station. FREE HOTDOGS!!!!!

January 9, 2009, 02:10 AM	#33
txbirddog Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Great State of Texas Posts: 106	This is called "Tactics and Training" My take is this: If you say, "I have a bomb", that is a direct threat on my life,,,,just the same as pointing a gun at me or people I love,,,,Threat eliminated. While we are sitting here in our nice homes,,,,playing scenarios and second guessing,,,,he made a decision,,,,if you can't make a decision,,,,immediately and with conviction,,,,you are better off leaving your gun at home. Your indecision will get more people killed than taking action,,,if you all tossing out that he could have triggered the bomb,,,,he could have done it anyway or it could have gone off inadvertenly as many homemade bombs do. My final point is this,,,,get the mindset to be able to act so if you haveto you can!!!!! If you spend too much time thinking about collateral damage,,,,that's what you will get.

January 9, 2009, 09:34 AM	#35
PhoenixConflagration Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Location: Jacksonville, Fl Posts: 517	The only way any bomb could have gone off is if the man detonated it (that's preventable with quick and overwhelming action) or if he had a 'dead man switch' (which would be visually obvious). The possibility that the gunfire itself would have set off the bomb is fairly low as so unstable a bomb probably wouldn't have made it out of the guy's house and to the bank. Yes the shooter took a risk, but life is a series of mitigated or unmitigated risks. They refer to that scientifically as TIME. __________________ *There is nothing quite so dangerous as a pacifist, for they will readily sacrifice others* for their ideals.**

January 9, 2009, 11:24 AM	#36
Joat Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2008 Location: Dayton, TX Posts: 383	Hero. The man saw the situation, recognized the threat, and neutralized the threat. He was trained and prepared to deal with the unexpected and did so with no physical harm to bystanders. "I have a bomb." is a threat of lethal force. If the shooter believed that the robber had the means and intent to carry through with his threats, it is a valid threat to life and limb. Just because he didn't have a bomb (or in other words, the gun was a toy) does not remove the fact that the perceived threat to life is untrue. He reacted to the threat and the belief that his life, and others lives, were in immediate danger, and removed the threat. Joat __________________ All things being equal, fat people use more soap. (I know I am one.) High speed, low drag does not even come close to describing ME.

January 9, 2009, 04:40 PM	#37
Grimlok Member Join Date: January 2, 2009 Posts: 16	Dec. 2008 issue of Tactical Weapons has an article about a man who freaks out on a jetliner after it has been boarded. The man screams 'I have a bomb' and waves a backpack around as he runs to the exit of the jet. An Air Marshal pursues him out of the jet and shoots him. Turns out he didn't actually have a bomb. Threat made - Threat eliminated. Only difference I see is one was a LEO and the other a CCW holder. I think the bank bomber is lucky to still be breathing. Right or wrong, I've always been a believer in "All's well that ends well".

January 9, 2009, 11:06 PM	#41
Scott Free Member Join Date: September 24, 2008 Posts: 41	If a lot more people carried guns, and a lot more people were willing to do what this man did, there wouldn't be bank robbers. Anytime a cop confronts a BG at a bank, he also is putting all others in the bank in jeopardy at the same time. What if the BG shoots someone? What if the cop accidentally shoots an innocent? We could ask our cops to allow robberies to continue, and to only confront them after the bad guys are far away from bystanders, I suppose. Cops or civilians who stop robberies are heroes. __________________ "You'll be safe with me. I'm a good screamer."

January 10, 2009, 02:00 AM	#42
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	Another "awesome" and "hero" comment. Great job. __________________ Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

January 12, 2009, 05:11 AM	#43
Gazdik Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: NE OHIO Posts: 29	Hero,hero,hero...Good for him!! __________________ US ARMY '92-'96 Thanks to all who have served!! 6/52 HAWK ADA 6/43 ADA (my combat unit) 11th Sig

January 12, 2009, 07:27 AM	#45
Khaot1c Member Join Date: March 14, 2008 Location: Florida Panhandle Posts: 54	a difference When a CW is taking on a BG at any point in time, there is always the potential for bad things to happen. Obviously, the good guys are always at the disadvantage. I mean, the BG goes into the store with the intent to do ill. Good guys have to first react to the enviornment and then make assesments given the information given right? If a guy says "I have a bomb" that's an end all statement to me because it's a weapon. There were points made about it being able to do more damage and kill more people than if it were just a gun, but thats true and not true. Whatever the mindset of the BG, property damage is the colateral effect to the BG main intent and stopping property damage should never be a reason to draw on a BG. So, in my opinion we're down to stopping the bad guys from hurting/killing good guys. If the guy were carying any kind of gun, he could achive the same thing as a bomb, but it woudl take more trigger pulls (and thus more time) to hurt the same amount of innocent people as ONE trigger pull on his bomb. So yes, hearing "I HAVE A BOMB" is reason enough for a CW to take action.

January 12, 2009, 08:15 AM	#46
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	Let us review. Man enters bank and attempts to rob it with a note saying he has a bomb. He even informs another customer "I have a bomb". Now we initiate the grey cells in turbocharged mode. Is there any evidence he has a bomb? Does he appear to have a deadman switch or a pushbutton? Does he appear lucid, focused and capable of carrying out the threat? Does it appear that he has any accomplices you can see? Depending on the above assessment you take a course of action. As I see it, these actions are: Do nothing, bide your time and take action when/if necessary. Draw and shoot him in the head. Draw and at gunpoint demand to see his hands or otherwise secure him. Run out of the bank screaming like a little girl. If he holds a deadman switch (or Blackflags' red-herring with two grenades) then biding your time is most likely correct. You don't reveal your armed status and if the time comes, you terminate him quickly. Please note that someone who says "I have a bomb" and indicates it is strapped to his body is NOT the same as a man saying he has a gun or will kill you. The bomber is saying I want my demands met and I'm willing to die to get what I want, plus killing or maiming anyone around. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

January 13, 2009, 07:54 AM	#47
lakebilly Member Join Date: May 6, 2008 Location: NY Posts: 41	let the situation dictate the response good posts! i think that the situation should dictate the response and having just one option; NUCLEAR and stating that option in this forum can be problematical to a CCW. working in bars and taking many self defense classes, i hear too many people saying " if this happens, i'll do this.... assess the threat and have a measured response. given that you have practiced many situations many ways will have a better chance for a CCW to be a Godsend than a menace. The proportion of CCW citizens is getting smaller. If everyone that had the right to carry, did carry, and it was a well know fact, the "successful probabilities" of pulling this off is more likely to dissuade a 'thinking person', 'thinking person' from thinking about doing it. Dealing with a desperate person who believes he has only one option; steal or perish, would certainly call for deliberate measure. Every situation is different with it's own level of threat. Only you can assess the situation YOUR in. My plug would be for more CCW's and more training for all kinds of threats. The amount of money we throw @ crimefighting might be well spent in training citizens too. I am sure this will be a perpetual topic. __________________ "Our destruction... From the innattention of the people to the concerns of their government... fail properly to scrutinze their conduct; that in this way they may be made dupes of designing men..." D. Webster

January 14, 2009, 07:05 AM	#48
B.N.Real Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Posts: 4,092	Awesome. Nice to see a Middle Eastern American portrayed correctly for once. Nice job there,fellow citizen.

January 14, 2009, 01:07 PM	#49
Wagonman Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,014	+1 B.N.