10mm compared to .45 Auto - Page 3

cje1980 · May 25, 2005, 04:44 AM

Quote:

it seems to me that you could obtain the same type of results from a .45+P round or equivalent. I guess I am trying to determine why a 10mm would have a significant advantage over the .45 Auto.

The 10mm still beats .45+p loads usually by 150-200ft.lbs. of energy. No other semi-auto round compares to the 10mm as far as power goes. The decision should really be about practicality of the round as others pointed out. I think the reason why the round failed to gain popularity is because it doesn't suit a practical purpose. People looking for a self-defense gun want something that is common, cheap and easy to find but will do the job. The 10mm can be very difficult to find and it isn't cheap nor common. Hunters would much rather use something more powerful for hunting such as a .44magnum. I don't think the round will ever gain major popularity due to these aspects. With that said, I hope to get a gun in 10mm someday.

juliet charley · May 25, 2005, 07:08 AM

There's a difference between "results" and "energy."

While the hottest 10mm loads may offer more energy than the .45 ACP +P loads, that does not automatically transfer to better results--particularly in LE/personal defence applications (particularly at normal ranges). The extra energy of the 10mm may become factor at longer ranges (25 yards plus) and in the ability to push a solid bullet through a large game animal, but those are not necessarily considerations for a LE/defence round. In fact, that little "extra" is paid for in a comparative loss of controllability--something much less crucial in a hunting/fun round than in a serious LE/defence round.

CastleBravo · May 25, 2005, 09:30 AM

If all you care about is self-defense against humans inside 25 yards, .45 ACP is among the best choices out there. If you have no need for 10mm's versatility, then there is no reason to get it, because you aren't using its upsides.

But some people want a cartridge that can operate outside .45 ACP or .40 S&W's relatively narrow windows of power, sectional density and longer-range striking power, and for them 10mm is ideal.

10mm is certainly not a lazy noob's caliber. If you don't reload, you actually - gasp! - need to shop around to pay the same price as people pay for .45 ACP factory ammo. Oh, the horror!

Solitar · May 25, 2005, 02:39 PM

Quote:

The bottom line is for LE/personal defence is we have a pretty good idea of how a .45 ACP Ranger T, Gold Dot or Golden Sabre actually will perform. We have little or no idea how the Gold Dots or Golden Sabres loaded by the boutique companies will perform based either acutal LE use or testing by professional, independent ballistics labs (and besides, there is absolutely nothing to support the notion that pushing .40 calibre/10mm bullets beyond current .40 S&W velocities/energy levels does anything more than decrease control).

Performance of .40 caliber bullets is fairly well known at specific velocities. Yet even among .40S&W and other .40 loads there is a broad range of velocities. Okay, lets assume the designs are optimized for an "average" velocity at an average range (terminal velocity rather than muzzle). The 10mm offers those same velocities and terminal performance at longer ranges -- where the velocity has dropped to that of .40S&W at shorter ranges.

Are some of these expanding bullet designs so optimized that their terminal performance is off by a lot if the velocity is off by 100 fps or the range is shorter or longer than the optimum by 50 yards? Is the terminal performance of the designs that sensitive to terminal velocity? If so, then we should have specific loads for specific distances -- one for 25 yards, one for 50 yards, and one for 100 yards. The 10mm can excel at those longer ranges.

Might there also be for some expanding loads an optimal terminal velocity that the .40S&W just can not reach?

juliet charley · May 25, 2005, 05:05 PM

Bullets designed for the .40 S&W are designed for optimal performance at .40 S&W velocities at normal combat ranges. Many of the boutique manufacturers push .40 S&W bullets considerably faster than normal .40 S&W velocities--velocities at the upper end (or beyond) the design limits of the bullets. Since we are discussing LE/defence, we are probably not looking for optimal performance from 3 to maybe 17-18 yards--not 50 to 75 yards. At 50 to 70 yards, you either need to be scooting the other direction or reaching for a rifle.

The bottom line is we really don't know how the boutique 10mm loads will actually perform at normal defence ranges where we are looking for optimum performance, but we do know that Gold Dot bullets, for example, tend to perform at sub-optimum levels when pushed beyond their design velocities. Most bullets are designed for optimum performance within a given velocity window (which, unforutnately, the manufacturers do not release). The performance window generally pretty well accounts for the velocity differences you will see due to variations in barrel lengths and normal combat ranges, but you can expect performance to begin degrade as you approach either end of the velocity window.

The problem with the hot (boutique) 10mm ammo is that at normal combat ranges, the bullets, which were designed for normal .40 S&W velocities, are traveling at the upper limits (or beyond) their optimum velocity levels which will actually degrade bullet performance. There are just no current generation premium bullets designed for the velocities to which most of the boutique ammunition is pushed (nor is there likely to be in the future).

the possum · May 25, 2005, 06:55 PM

At the risk of straying from the topic a bit, I'll share my reasons for wanting a 10mm to replace my .45.

Mainly, it's for very specialized hunting. We have a raccoon problem at our farm, and I feel a 10mm would be perfect for my situation. I've used my .45 loaded with 185 grain Gold Dots @ ~1150 fps (handloads) to take well over a hundred coons. I have not been impressed with its ability to stop these tough little buggers. My .454 Casull doesn't hold enough rounds, as it's not uncommon to need 10 or more shots at a time. It's also too heavy, for pointing at critters moving fast at close ranges. A standard size autoloader is about perfect, but I want more power. Another forumite here has posted about maximum published handloads that push a 135 grain bullet between 1700 and 1920 fps. I believe such loads would be far more effective than my .45 (for this purpose!), while keeping the platform manageable.

Oh, and yes, I reload.

CastleBravo · May 25, 2005, 09:16 PM

"Boutique"... interesting epithet. Makes the more powerful cartridge sound gay or something. Very clever.

S.E.R.T.SGT · May 25, 2005, 09:42 PM

After much consideration, and a good part, as a result of many of the quality posts in this thread, I have ordered my EAA Witness 10mm, and am having it sent down from Oklahoma City. Should be here in a few days, and I will show some pics of the new addition to the "family". Thanks all for the great information, for the price of $330.00 I figured I couldn't really go wrong. I'll keep all posted...

LAK · May 26, 2005, 03:38 AM

What Tulsamal has said.

And the 10mm makes an arguably better trail piece IMO.

cje1980 · May 26, 2005, 04:38 AM

Quote:

There's a difference between "results" and "energy."

While the hottest 10mm loads may offer more energy than the .45 ACP +P loads, that does not automatically transfer to better results--particularly in LE/personal defence applications (particularly at normal ranges). The extra energy of the 10mm may become factor at longer ranges (25 yards plus) and in the ability to push a solid bullet through a large game animal, but those are not necessarily considerations for a LE/defence round. In fact, that little "extra" is paid for in a comparative loss of controllability--something much less crucial in a hunting/fun round than in a serious LE/defence round.

Is it just me or did you just echo what my post said. I said the reason the cartridge failed to gain popularity is because it doesn't suit a practical purpose. It probably isn't any more effective at short ranges than .40 or .45 and it's just barely powerful enough to be considered as a hunting cartridge. You refer to the "boutique" loads. Even standard non "boutique" loads such as winchester ST, which are fairly mild are hotter than any +p .40 or .45. You mentioned that the 10mm has the ability to push a solid bullet through a large game animal. That says it right there. The 10mm is simply more powerful. Why does such a simple concept need to made complex.

caz223 · May 26, 2005, 05:34 AM

I gotta jump in on this.
If you want to hunt with an autoloader pistol, the 10mm should be the first thing you think about.
My 2 favorite calibers of all time are 10mm, and .41 magnum.
They both fill almost the same niche, and neither are hugely sucessfull, but they are good enough to never die out unless a direct replacement becomes popular (Like what happened to .41 AE.)
When a caliber is launched, people link their experiences with the guns that were available at the time with the caliber.
The 10mm and the .41 both suffered from 'magnumitis' (Not that it's a bad thing.), but it does limit sales to the people that can shoot heavy recoiling guns, and would want to (Like enthusiasts and hunters.).
The .45 is accurate, and powerful enough for 2 leggers at medium ranges, but for long ranges, or for tougher, furrier predators the extra power of the 10mm is a welcome comfort.

CastleBravo · May 26, 2005, 09:33 AM

People have a peculiar habit of seeing things they don't have a need for as being useless for everyone.

10mm Auto does things that .45 ACP can't. Some people want those things, some people don't. That doesn't mean those things don't exist all the same, however.

perception · May 26, 2005, 02:21 PM

People keep talking about "boutique" loads. I would call them more original than the non "boutique" loads. My understanding is that the original Norma 10mm was as hot as any of these so-called "boutique" loads. Therefore, you have to get loads like this to get the real 10mm experience.

Iron bottom · May 26, 2005, 04:29 PM

I've shot 'em all and the 10 MM is the most accurate and powerful auto I've seen. It is a hundred yard gun if you can shoot. Man or beast, getting hit with a 10 MM, is going to have a bad day. Period. Recoil, you say? My wife shoots my 10 MM. Must be them booteek bullits. Later, Iron bottom.

shield20 · May 26, 2005, 04:31 PM

If I could carry a duty size gun in any caliber - I would go 10mm.

cje1980 · May 27, 2005, 01:20 AM

Quote:

It is a hundred yard gun if you can shoot.

At 100 yds. even with average loads, the 10mm has more energy than the .45 does at the muzzle. That says it all.

CarbineCaleb · May 28, 2005, 01:18 PM

I'd echo cje1980's comment: "I think the reason why the round failed to gain popularity is because it doesn't suit a practical purpose. "

For target applications, most people wouldn't want the expense and discomfort of the 10mm for shooting paper and cans.

For self-defense, there is no significant advantage to the 10mm's extra power over the 9mm/40S&W/45ACP class. It is, however, harder to control, causing flinch in many shooters, and slowing followup shots in all relative to the former class.

For hunting, first, I suspect that handgun hunting of deer, bear, pig, while it is done, isn't a huge application market in the first place. And in revolvers, one already has there .357magnum, .41 magnum, and .44 magnum, which pretty much covers that. I guess you could say that the 10mm is the best semiauto pistol for deer and pig. How many of those do you think you'll sell though? Whether it's for humane reasons, worrying they'll find their trophy, or worrying about their own skin, most people hunt large critters with a long gun.

juliet charley · May 28, 2005, 02:02 PM

Quote:

At 100 yds. even with average loads, the 10mm has more energy than the .45 does at the muzzle. That says it all.

Only if you're interested in shooting a handgun at one hundreds yards--otherwise, it's just big ho hum.

Quote:

For self-defense, there is no significant advantage to the 10mm's extra power over the 9mm/40S&W/45ACP class. It is, however, harder to control, causing flinch in many shooters, and slowing followup shots in all relative to the former class.

The only niche the 10mm reasonably fills is for those who absolutely insist on hunting medium game with an autoloader (and even then, it's borderline).

CastleBravo · May 28, 2005, 02:21 PM

Quote:

The only niche the 10mm reasonably fills is for those who absolutely insist on hunting medium game with an autoloader (and even then, it's borderline).

In the same way .357 Magnum is "borderline," I suppose?

Realistically, what is a .400" 200gr bullet at @ 1,275 ft/sec from a 4.6" barrel not going to do that any .357 Magnum bullet will? Is it going to make too BIG a hole or something?

cje1980 · May 28, 2005, 03:06 PM

Well said CaslteBravo, I don't think it is exactly the same as 9mm, .40, and .45 and neither does the FBI. The FBI determined that the 10mm was the most effective semi-auto cartridge ever developed and I think that as well. Yes most of the advantages are longer range but the same can be said of the .357 Magnum. The .357 Mag is known as the best manstopping cartridge in a handgun. I guess you could say the same thing about rifle cartridges, that they are only better at longer ranges than pistol rounds. Is that true, no. The FBI determined that the FBI was the round that penetrated most consistently through various barriers. With the 9mm and .45 you have freak instances when they act very inconsistently penetrating through barriers. The FBI just couldn't find the right weapons system for the 10mm that meeted their needs. It also hindered shootability. They stated that the newly designed .40 could be loaded to match the 10mm loads that they began using at the time. I don't think anybody in their right mind will ever tell you that the 9mm, .40, or .45 is exactly the same thing as a 10mm. I find it amazing that someone can just ignore that at a 100 yds. the 10mm still has the same or more energy than a .40 or .45. At 100 yds. it is essentially the same exact thing as a .40S&W. It is obviously making quite a bit more power than the .45. I agree with JC, however that I don't think much thought has been put into designing 10mm bullets and that they might no perform as expected.

juliet charley · May 28, 2005, 03:34 PM

Quote:

In the same way .357 Magnum is "borderline," I suppose?

Yep, the .357 Magnum is borderline as medium game cartridge. Both the .41 Magnum and .44 Magnum are markedly superior (and that's not even considering the true speciality rounds like the .454, .480, etc.). So, yes, CB, the 10mm is very borderline as medium game cartridge (if you take off the blinders). After all, the the hottest 10mm loads just barely match the hottest the .357 Magnum loads. The 10mm is, at best, the autoloader equivalent (ballistic twin) of the .357 Magnum.

Quote:

The FBI determined that the FBI was the round that penetrated most consistently through various barriers. With the 9mm and .45 you have freak instances when they act very inconsistently penetrating through barriers.

Very true--fifteen years ago! There are no current generation bullets designed for for the 10mm, and the 9x19, .40 S&W, .45 ACP bullets have come a long, long ways in the past fifteen years. As for energy, I just find it incredibly hard to get excited by energy at paltry level generated by handguns, period (even the 10mm).

Give me accuracy, controllability, reliabilty, good penetration and expansion--things the 9x19, .40 S&W and .45 ACP do just as well (or better) than the 10mm.

**Mike Irwin** · May 28, 2005, 11:25 PM

"Does being able to compete in a pinshoot with a "standard" 10mm as opposed to having to beef up the .45ACP load"

I've never had any problems being competitive in pin shooting using a standard hardball load for .45.

"10 mm Magnum...."

There was a 10mm Magnum cartridge, for a very brief period of time. AMT chambered one of their Automag series of handguns for it, IIRC the Automag IV. Failed rather quickly. I believe that IAI developed the 10mm Magnum for AMT.

**Mike Irwin** · May 28, 2005, 11:35 PM

"There are no current generation bullets designed for for the 10mm..."

Unless you don't count the Corbon Pow R Ball.

And I'd still be more than willing to stake my hide on Federal's Hydrashok in just about any caliber.

4thHorseman · May 29, 2005, 12:05 AM

IMHO the 10mm is to the 40 as the 357 is to the 38.
Why do I need a 10mm? For the same reason I have a 357. One shot stops (if there is such a thing) is well within reason. Puching through barriers, not much of a problem.
The 10mm is a hell of a knock down cartridge and was designed for it from the very start.
The 41 mag was a great cartridge also, but I always had trouble controlling it. It kick like a mule for me. I couldn't hit anything with the 4" N frame. Not so with the 10mm. The 10mm is very easilily controlled by me. Very accurate for me.
I buy bullets for $12-15 for a box of 50 at gun shows depending on the type of load. You can buy a decreased load also.
Some one asked why don't they make better rounds for it? IMHO they don't need to. Look at the 357 mag. What's the best round for it? Yep, the old Federal or Winchester 125 gr plain old hollow point. The velocity expands that baby like an old dead possum on a hot desert road. You have a 180 gr bullet going near 1300-1400 ft per second, IT WILL EXPAND and IT WILL BE DRAMATIC, regardless of the hollow point's bullet design. Just like the 357 mag. To me the 357 is harder to control than the 10mm. If you never fired the round, it is tough to make comments on it.
It is a wonderful round that WILL GET THE JOB DONE, REGARDLESS!
IMHO (for all you flamers it's IMHO) the Miami Shoot out would be a mute point for the history books and have no relevance if the FBI were carring 10mm. There's no dought in my mind the 10mm would shatter bones and still optain optimal penetration needed for a lethal kill. No dought what so ever. It would penetrate car doors and windshields like a bolt of lightning compared to the 9mm, IMHO
IMHO it is the most under rated cartridge in the world of handguns.

Iron bottom · May 29, 2005, 06:34 AM

So the 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP have accuracy, reliability, controlability, penetration and expansion as good or better than the 10mm? Then why aren't they approved for hunting? The people that shoot 10mm know what the deal is. There are bullets. The 10mm can be controlled. It is accurate. It is reliable. The bottom line is: If you can't take the heat, Stay out of the kitchen.

May 25, 2005, 09:42 PM	#58
S.E.R.T.SGT Senior Member Join Date: April 1, 2005 Posts: 236	After much consideration, and a good part, as a result of many of the quality posts in this thread, I have ordered my EAA Witness 10mm, and am having it sent down from Oklahoma City. Should be here in a few days, and I will show some pics of the new addition to the "family". Thanks all for the great information, for the price of $330.00 I figured I couldn't really go wrong. I'll keep all posted... __________________ Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Though wise men at their end know dark is right, Because their words had forked no lighting they Do not go gently into that good night. Dylan Thomas S.E.R.T.SGT

May 26, 2005, 05:34 AM	#61
caz223 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,429	I gotta jump in on this. If you want to hunt with an autoloader pistol, the 10mm should be the first thing you think about. My 2 favorite calibers of all time are 10mm, and .41 magnum. They both fill almost the same niche, and neither are hugely sucessfull, but they are good enough to never die out unless a direct replacement becomes popular (Like what happened to .41 AE.) When a caliber is launched, people link their experiences with the guns that were available at the time with the caliber. The 10mm and the .41 both suffered from 'magnumitis' (Not that it's a bad thing.), but it does limit sales to the people that can shoot heavy recoiling guns, and would want to (Like enthusiasts and hunters.). The .45 is accurate, and powerful enough for 2 leggers at medium ranges, but for long ranges, or for tougher, furrier predators the extra power of the 10mm is a welcome comfort. __________________ I'm not just a gun. I'm YOUR gun. (Hold me.)

May 28, 2005, 01:18 PM	#67
CarbineCaleb Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2004 Posts: 2,745	10mm - not in a ballistic "sweet spot" I'd echo cje1980's comment: "I think the reason why the round failed to gain popularity is because it doesn't suit a practical purpose. " For target applications, most people wouldn't want the expense and discomfort of the 10mm for shooting paper and cans. For self-defense, there is no significant advantage to the 10mm's extra power over the 9mm/40S&W/45ACP class. It is, however, harder to control, causing flinch in many shooters, and slowing followup shots in all relative to the former class. For hunting, first, I suspect that handgun hunting of deer, bear, pig, while it is done, isn't a huge application market in the first place. And in revolvers, one already has there .357magnum, .41 magnum, and .44 magnum, which pretty much covers that. I guess you could say that the 10mm is the best semiauto pistol for deer and pig. How many of those do you think you'll sell though? Whether it's for humane reasons, worrying they'll find their trophy, or worrying about their own skin, most people hunt large critters with a long gun.

May 29, 2005, 12:05 AM	#74
4thHorseman Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2001 Posts: 698	IMHO the 10mm is to the 40 as the 357 is to the 38. Why do I need a 10mm? For the same reason I have a 357. One shot stops (if there is such a thing) is well within reason. Puching through barriers, not much of a problem. The 10mm is a hell of a knock down cartridge and was designed for it from the very start. The 41 mag was a great cartridge also, but I always had trouble controlling it. It kick like a mule for me. I couldn't hit anything with the 4" N frame. Not so with the 10mm. The 10mm is very easilily controlled by me. Very accurate for me. I buy bullets for $12-15 for a box of 50 at gun shows depending on the type of load. You can buy a decreased load also. Some one asked why don't they make better rounds for it? IMHO they don't need to. Look at the 357 mag. What's the best round for it? Yep, the old Federal or Winchester 125 gr plain old hollow point. The velocity expands that baby like an old dead possum on a hot desert road. You have a 180 gr bullet going near 1300-1400 ft per second, IT WILL EXPAND and IT WILL BE DRAMATIC, regardless of the hollow point's bullet design. Just like the 357 mag. To me the 357 is harder to control than the 10mm. If you never fired the round, it is tough to make comments on it. It is a wonderful round that WILL GET THE JOB DONE, REGARDLESS! IMHO (for all you flamers it's IMHO) the Miami Shoot out would be a mute point for the history books and have no relevance if the FBI were carring 10mm. There's no dought in my mind the 10mm would shatter bones and still optain optimal penetration needed for a lethal kill. No dought what so ever. It would penetrate car doors and windshields like a bolt of lightning compared to the 9mm, IMHO IMHO it is the most under rated cartridge in the world of handguns. __________________ The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed -- where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once." -- Justice Alex Kozinski, US 9th Circuit Court, 2003 Last edited by 4thHorseman; May 29, 2005 at 11:28 AM.

May 25, 2005, 07:08 AM	#52
juliet charley Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 1999 Posts: 2,501	There's a difference between "results" and "energy." While the hottest 10mm loads may offer more energy than the .45 ACP +P loads, that does not automatically transfer to better results--particularly in LE/personal defence applications (particularly at normal ranges). The extra energy of the 10mm may become factor at longer ranges (25 yards plus) and in the ability to push a solid bullet through a large game animal, but those are not necessarily considerations for a LE/defence round. In fact, that little "extra" is paid for in a comparative loss of controllability--something much less crucial in a hunting/fun round than in a serious LE/defence round.

May 25, 2005, 09:30 AM	#53
CastleBravo Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 1999 Posts: 2,144	If all you care about is self-defense against humans inside 25 yards, .45 ACP is among the best choices out there. If you have no need for 10mm's versatility, then there is no reason to get it, because you aren't using its upsides. But some people want a cartridge that can operate outside .45 ACP or .40 S&W's relatively narrow windows of power, sectional density and longer-range striking power, and for them 10mm is ideal. 10mm is certainly not a lazy noob's caliber. If you don't reload, you actually - gasp! - need to shop around to pay the same price as people pay for .45 ACP factory ammo. Oh, the horror!

May 25, 2005, 05:05 PM	#55
juliet charley Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 1999 Posts: 2,501	Bullets designed for the .40 S&W are designed for optimal performance at .40 S&W velocities at normal combat ranges. Many of the boutique manufacturers push .40 S&W bullets considerably faster than normal .40 S&W velocities--velocities at the upper end (or beyond) the design limits of the bullets. Since we are discussing LE/defence, we are probably not looking for optimal performance from 3 to maybe 17-18 yards--not 50 to 75 yards. At 50 to 70 yards, you either need to be scooting the other direction or reaching for a rifle. The bottom line is we really don't know how the boutique 10mm loads will actually perform at normal defence ranges where we are looking for optimum performance, but we do know that Gold Dot bullets, for example, tend to perform at sub-optimum levels when pushed beyond their design velocities. Most bullets are designed for optimum performance within a given velocity window (which, unforutnately, the manufacturers do not release). The performance window generally pretty well accounts for the velocity differences you will see due to variations in barrel lengths and normal combat ranges, but you can expect performance to begin degrade as you approach either end of the velocity window. The problem with the hot (boutique) 10mm ammo is that at normal combat ranges, the bullets, which were designed for normal .40 S&W velocities, are traveling at the upper limits (or beyond) their optimum velocity levels which will actually degrade bullet performance. There are just no current generation premium bullets designed for the velocities to which most of the boutique ammunition is pushed (nor is there likely to be in the future).

May 25, 2005, 06:55 PM	#56
the possum Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2004 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 555	At the risk of straying from the topic a bit, I'll share my reasons for wanting a 10mm to replace my .45. Mainly, it's for very specialized hunting. We have a raccoon problem at our farm, and I feel a 10mm would be perfect for my situation. I've used my .45 loaded with 185 grain Gold Dots @ ~1150 fps (handloads) to take well over a hundred coons. I have not been impressed with its ability to stop these tough little buggers. My .454 Casull doesn't hold enough rounds, as it's not uncommon to need 10 or more shots at a time. It's also too heavy, for pointing at critters moving fast at close ranges. A standard size autoloader is about perfect, but I want more power. Another forumite here has posted about maximum published handloads that push a 135 grain bullet between 1700 and 1920 fps. I believe such loads would be far more effective than my .45 (for this purpose!), while keeping the platform manageable. Oh, and yes, I reload.

May 25, 2005, 09:16 PM	#57
CastleBravo Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 1999 Posts: 2,144	"Boutique"... interesting epithet. Makes the more powerful cartridge sound gay or something. Very clever.

May 26, 2005, 03:38 AM	#59
LAK Junior member Join Date: May 14, 2002 Posts: 2,251	What Tulsamal has said. And the 10mm makes an arguably better trail piece IMO.

May 26, 2005, 09:33 AM	#62
CastleBravo Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 1999 Posts: 2,144	People have a peculiar habit of seeing things they don't have a need for as being useless for everyone. 10mm Auto does things that .45 ACP can't. Some people want those things, some people don't. That doesn't mean those things don't exist all the same, however.

May 26, 2005, 02:21 PM	#63
perception Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 421	People keep talking about "boutique" loads. I would call them more original than the non "boutique" loads. My understanding is that the original Norma 10mm was as hot as any of these so-called "boutique" loads. Therefore, you have to get loads like this to get the real 10mm experience.

May 26, 2005, 04:29 PM	#64
Iron bottom Member Join Date: May 26, 2005 Posts: 52	I've shot 'em all and the 10 MM is the most accurate and powerful auto I've seen. It is a hundred yard gun if you can shoot. Man or beast, getting hit with a 10 MM, is going to have a bad day. Period. Recoil, you say? My wife shoots my 10 MM. Must be them booteek bullits. Later, Iron bottom.

May 26, 2005, 04:31 PM	#65
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	If I could carry a duty size gun in any caliber - I would go 10mm.

May 28, 2005, 03:06 PM	#70
cje1980 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,412	Well said CaslteBravo, I don't think it is exactly the same as 9mm, .40, and .45 and neither does the FBI. The FBI determined that the 10mm was the most effective semi-auto cartridge ever developed and I think that as well. Yes most of the advantages are longer range but the same can be said of the .357 Magnum. The .357 Mag is known as the best manstopping cartridge in a handgun. I guess you could say the same thing about rifle cartridges, that they are only better at longer ranges than pistol rounds. Is that true, no. The FBI determined that the FBI was the round that penetrated most consistently through various barriers. With the 9mm and .45 you have freak instances when they act very inconsistently penetrating through barriers. The FBI just couldn't find the right weapons system for the 10mm that meeted their needs. It also hindered shootability. They stated that the newly designed .40 could be loaded to match the 10mm loads that they began using at the time. I don't think anybody in their right mind will ever tell you that the 9mm, .40, or .45 is exactly the same thing as a 10mm. I find it amazing that someone can just ignore that at a 100 yds. the 10mm still has the same or more energy than a .40 or .45. At 100 yds. it is essentially the same exact thing as a .40S&W. It is obviously making quite a bit more power than the .45. I agree with JC, however that I don't think much thought has been put into designing 10mm bullets and that they might no perform as expected.

May 28, 2005, 11:25 PM	#72
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	"Does being able to compete in a pinshoot with a "standard" 10mm as opposed to having to beef up the .45ACP load" I've never had any problems being competitive in pin shooting using a standard hardball load for .45. "10 mm Magnum...." There was a 10mm Magnum cartridge, for a very brief period of time. AMT chambered one of their Automag series of handguns for it, IIRC the Automag IV. Failed rather quickly. I believe that IAI developed the 10mm Magnum for AMT.

May 28, 2005, 11:35 PM	#73
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	"There are no current generation bullets designed for for the 10mm..." Unless you don't count the Corbon Pow R Ball. And I'd still be more than willing to stake my hide on Federal's Hydrashok in just about any caliber.

May 29, 2005, 06:34 AM	#75
Iron bottom Member Join Date: May 26, 2005 Posts: 52	So the 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP have accuracy, reliability, controlability, penetration and expansion as good or better than the 10mm? Then why aren't they approved for hunting? The people that shoot 10mm know what the deal is. There are bullets. The 10mm can be controlled. It is accurate. It is reliable. The bottom line is: If you can't take the heat, Stay out of the kitchen.