Other Possiblilties for the RAR in 7.62X39

BBarn · September 7, 2017, 06:19 PM

While I'm glad to see the Ruger American chambered in 7.62X39, it doesn't interest me much as-is because the really cheap 7.62X39 ammo is no longer available. I'm talking about when it was about 50% to 75% of the cost of 223. Nowadays the cost of 7.62X39 is about the same as 223.

My real interest in the rifle lies in the possibility of re-barreling it to .357 Maximum. It's been suggested in another thread that the 77/357 could simply be re-chambered for the Maximum, but I'm not sure that's true. The Maximum is about 0.40" longer than the Magnum, with an overall max length of about 2". The 77/357 action opening is about 2.1" and the bolt travel is about 2.3". However, the ejector operates at an opening of about 1.8", so ejecting a loaded round would likely be a problem. And I don't believe the existing ejector could be "moved" (ground off) far enough back to work with a 2" long cartridge. Additionally, the magazine length is a major problem with the 77/357. It can handle cartridge lengths up to about 1.7" only.

The action of this new RAR in 7.62X39 is long enough to handle the .357 Maximum, and the bolt face is probably usable as-is also. The magazine would very likely be an issue however.

taylorce1 · September 7, 2017, 06:39 PM

I found this and it might be a better option but it will be tedious making brass. .357 Max rimless all it will require is a new barrel on a .223 rifle.

ThomasT · September 7, 2017, 07:33 PM

I have wondered why no one ever made a rimless 357 and 44 mag to shoot from an autoloader. Maybe a 30 carbine style rifle. And on the other hand make rimmed 40 S&W, 10MM and 9mm that could be easily shot in a revolver for all those who like to shoot auto rounds from their revolvers. The load data is already there so all that would be needed were the guns.

And I know about the 9mm Federal round. I know it was pulled because it could be shot in old 38 SW revolvers that might blow up from the higher pressures.

I know a man who couldn't find any 38 S&W ammo but found out that 38 Super would chamber and head space on the tiny rim. I watched him shoot 5 rounds from so old gun he had and then I took a turn. Even though the bullet was way undersized it shot pretty accurately. I guess the undersized bullet is what kept the pressure down. I haven't seen him in 20 years so I don't know if he ever blew up the gun.

But a rimless 357 max would be a neat round from a Ruger auto or mini-14 or 30 carbine rifle. The pressure is high enough that a blow back action couldn't be used.

bamaranger · September 8, 2017, 01:38 AM

I'm thinking the big issue with a rimless, straight walled case is headspace. They've pulled it off with the .450 BM. The old Win SLR cases were semirimmed I think. I think the .44 automag headspaced on the casemouth as well. Our popular autopistol rounds headspace on the rim, but I don't see it done on any type of rifle cartridge excluding the above. Not sure why, but there must be some issue.

As far as chamberings for the RAR, I'd like to see the 6.5 Grendel.

I'd like to see a new cartridge. A rimless in .40/10mm, using a fatter case, but no longer than .223 (1.76/2.26) with a shoulder sufficient for headspace, but exceeding 10mm handgun velocities. I'm thinking a 180/200 gr slug at 2300 fps or so. Something down the lines of the .401 SLR, but a bit hotter. Maybe the .450 BM case necked down to .40.

bamaranger · September 8, 2017, 01:49 AM

Answered my own question. Guess what? There is indeed a wildcat .40/10mm cartridge!, the .400AR. It exceeds .401 SLR numbers, and uses a standard AR bolt and will double stack in an AR mag. The case is straight walled and apparently headspaces on the casemouth.

If they can get those numbers from a case that is slim enough to doublestack, imagine what can be done with a fat case/single stack arrangement.

Model12Win · September 8, 2017, 10:09 AM

Quote:

I have wondered why no one ever made a rimless 357 and 44 mag to shoot from an autoloader

They did.

AUTOMAG.

Scorch · September 8, 2017, 10:40 PM

In addition to the AutoMag cartridges, there were the 9mm Winchester magnum and the 45 Winchester magnum, 9X23mm, 10mm, and a variety of wildcats. One reason no one is crazy about large caliber long straight-walled cases is trying to get them to feed can be challenging. Another is poor trajectory. Another is relatively low velocity. Almost everyone who introduced a pistol caliber carbine to the market has eventually withdrawn it due to low sales. Remember, even a powerful handgun cartridge is relatively wimpy when compared with even a mild rifle cartridge. Try comparing 454 Cassull with 30-30 and you'll see what I mean.

taylorce1 · September 8, 2017, 11:50 PM

I imagine the OP is in a State that only allows hunting with straight walled cartridges. He can find rifles in .357 magnum but he wants a .357 Maximum. His cheapest and easiest route is a single shot rifle like a T/C Contender or other break action rifle. However, he'd like a bolt action magazine fed rifle in this cartridge.

BBarn · September 9, 2017, 10:09 AM

Bingo. After shooting a friend's CZ527 converted to 357 max., I was sold on the Max for deer hunting in states that require the use of straight wall cartridges. From a rifle it offers a combination of recoil, trajectory, and power for deer that is at or near the top among the straight walled cartridges IMO.

BBarn · September 9, 2017, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scorch

Remember, even a powerful handgun cartridge is relatively wimpy when compared with even a mild rifle cartridge. Try comparing 454 Cassull with 30-30 and you'll see what I mean.

I wouldn't call the Casull wimpy compared to the 30-30. The muzzle energy levels between the Casull and 30-30 are comparable, and the Casull offers a heavier bullet with greater frontal area and weight, as well as greater momentum. A shorter distances, the Casull is likely a better stopper, while the 30-30 shoots flatter and looses less power at longer distances.

Scorch · September 9, 2017, 02:37 PM

Quote:

I wouldn't call the Casull wimpy compared to the 30-30.

I see they still don't teach reading comprehension in schools. What I said was

Quote:

even a powerful handgun cartridge is relatively wimpy when compared with even a mild rifle cartridge.

and then chose the most powerful commercially produced handgun cartridge and compared it to a comparably powered but relatively mild rifle cartridge for emphasis. So, to recap, powerful handgun cartridge compared to relatively mild rifle cartridge to point out the shortcomings of the original idea that a handgun cartridge rifle would be very useful.

Class dismissed.

BBarn · September 9, 2017, 03:24 PM

Sorry if your approach falls short of making your point at my lower tier. Perhaps I can make up for my lack of comprehension in the area of spelling.... Casull.

September 7, 2017, 06:19 PM	#1
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	Other Possiblilties for the RAR in 7.62X39 While I'm glad to see the Ruger American chambered in 7.62X39, it doesn't interest me much as-is because the really cheap 7.62X39 ammo is no longer available. I'm talking about when it was about 50% to 75% of the cost of 223. Nowadays the cost of 7.62X39 is about the same as 223. My real interest in the rifle lies in the possibility of re-barreling it to .357 Maximum. It's been suggested in another thread that the 77/357 could simply be re-chambered for the Maximum, but I'm not sure that's true. The Maximum is about 0.40" longer than the Magnum, with an overall max length of about 2". The 77/357 action opening is about 2.1" and the bolt travel is about 2.3". However, the ejector operates at an opening of about 1.8", so ejecting a loaded round would likely be a problem. And I don't believe the existing ejector could be "moved" (ground off) far enough back to work with a 2" long cartridge. Additionally, the magazine length is a major problem with the 77/357. It can handle cartridge lengths up to about 1.7" only. The action of this new RAR in 7.62X39 is long enough to handle the .357 Maximum, and the bolt face is probably usable as-is also. The magazine would very likely be an issue however.

September 7, 2017, 06:39 PM	#2
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	I found this and it might be a better option but it will be tedious making brass. .357 Max rimless all it will require is a new barrel on a .223 rifle. __________________ NRA Life Member

September 8, 2017, 01:38 AM	#4
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	rimless I'm thinking the big issue with a rimless, straight walled case is headspace. They've pulled it off with the .450 BM. The old Win SLR cases were semirimmed I think. I think the .44 automag headspaced on the casemouth as well. Our popular autopistol rounds headspace on the rim, but I don't see it done on any type of rifle cartridge excluding the above. Not sure why, but there must be some issue. As far as chamberings for the RAR, I'd like to see the 6.5 Grendel. I'd like to see a new cartridge. A rimless in .40/10mm, using a fatter case, but no longer than .223 (1.76/2.26) with a shoulder sufficient for headspace, but exceeding 10mm handgun velocities. I'm thinking a 180/200 gr slug at 2300 fps or so. Something down the lines of the .401 SLR, but a bit hotter. Maybe the .450 BM case necked down to .40.

September 8, 2017, 01:49 AM	#5
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	.400AR Answered my own question. Guess what? There is indeed a wildcat .40/10mm cartridge!, the .400AR. It exceeds .401 SLR numbers, and uses a standard AR bolt and will double stack in an AR mag. The case is straight walled and apparently headspaces on the casemouth. If they can get those numbers from a case that is slim enough to doublestack, imagine what can be done with a fat case/single stack arrangement.

September 8, 2017, 10:40 PM	#7
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	In addition to the AutoMag cartridges, there were the 9mm Winchester magnum and the 45 Winchester magnum, 9X23mm, 10mm, and a variety of wildcats. One reason no one is crazy about large caliber long straight-walled cases is trying to get them to feed can be challenging. Another is poor trajectory. Another is relatively low velocity. Almost everyone who introduced a pistol caliber carbine to the market has eventually withdrawn it due to low sales. Remember, even a powerful handgun cartridge is relatively wimpy when compared with even a mild rifle cartridge. Try comparing 454 Cassull with 30-30 and you'll see what I mean. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

September 7, 2017, 07:33 PM	#3
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	I have wondered why no one ever made a rimless 357 and 44 mag to shoot from an autoloader. Maybe a 30 carbine style rifle. And on the other hand make rimmed 40 S&W, 10MM and 9mm that could be easily shot in a revolver for all those who like to shoot auto rounds from their revolvers. The load data is already there so all that would be needed were the guns. And I know about the 9mm Federal round. I know it was pulled because it could be shot in old 38 SW revolvers that might blow up from the higher pressures. I know a man who couldn't find any 38 S&W ammo but found out that 38 Super would chamber and head space on the tiny rim. I watched him shoot 5 rounds from so old gun he had and then I took a turn. Even though the bullet was way undersized it shot pretty accurately. I guess the undersized bullet is what kept the pressure down. I haven't seen him in 20 years so I don't know if he ever blew up the gun. But a rimless 357 max would be a neat round from a Ruger auto or mini-14 or 30 carbine rifle. The pressure is high enough that a blow back action couldn't be used.

September 8, 2017, 11:50 PM	#8
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	I imagine the OP is in a State that only allows hunting with straight walled cartridges. He can find rifles in .357 magnum but he wants a .357 Maximum. His cheapest and easiest route is a single shot rifle like a T/C Contender or other break action rifle. However, he'd like a bolt action magazine fed rifle in this cartridge. __________________ NRA Life Member

September 9, 2017, 10:09 AM	#9
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	Bingo. After shooting a friend's CZ527 converted to 357 max., I was sold on the Max for deer hunting in states that require the use of straight wall cartridges. From a rifle it offers a combination of recoil, trajectory, and power for deer that is at or near the top among the straight walled cartridges IMO.

September 9, 2017, 03:24 PM	#12
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	Sorry if your approach falls short of making your point at my lower tier. Perhaps I can make up for my lack of comprehension in the area of spelling.... Casull.