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Old September 1, 2017, 02:32 PM   #51
Nanuk
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It makes no difference, until it does. One problem is credibility. If I claim the attacker was 4 feet away and was 10 feet away, the jury may look at that and begin to wonder what else about my story isn't quite true.
They might also say, yes but it was a dark rainy night and the guy was wearing a dark hoody and jumped out behind the victim so it is possible he was so scared he percieved it differently.
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Old September 1, 2017, 02:33 PM   #52
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If that finder of fact determines that "Spats McGee drove at 70 mph on Roosevelt Road," that fact becomes true for legal purposes. It does not matter how it was proved, whether anybody clocked me with a radar gun, or anything else. It becomes, legally, a fact.
No.

We're going a bit afield here, but maybe something can be salvaged from that statement.

If a jury decides that someone was driving 70, it can matter a great deal how they arrived at that conclusion.

Even if a radar gun wa used, and the state attempted to introduce the reading as evidence, there would be more to it.

The state could be required to processed the calibration records for the gun in question.

I'm not saying that for the purpose of argument. The rdar engineer who dat net to me at work was the test case. He appealed his conviction as a mater of principle, and he won.

The conviction was thrown out, and precedence regarding the admissibility of speed measurement evidence was established.
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Old September 1, 2017, 02:34 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Nanuk
They might also say, yes but it was a dark rainy night and the guy was wearing a dark hoody and jumped out behind the victim so it is possible he was so scared he percieved it differently.
Perhaps, but do you really want to count on discrepancies in your story to work in your favor in front of a jury?
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Old September 1, 2017, 02:39 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by OldMarksman
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Originally Posted by Spats McGee
If that finder of fact determines that "Spats McGee drove at 70 mph on Roosevelt Road," that fact becomes true for legal purposes. It does not matter how it was proved, whether anybody clocked me with a radar gun, or anything else. It becomes, legally, a fact.
No.

We're going a bit afield here, but maybe something can be salvaged from that statement.

If a jury decides that someone was driving 70, it can matter a great deal how they arrived at that conclusion.

Even if a radar gun wa used, and the state attempted to introduce the reading as evidence, there would be more to it.

The state could be required to processed the calibration records for the gun in question.

I'm not saying that for the purpose of argument. The rdar engineer who dat net to me at work was the test case. He appealed his conviction as a mater of principle, and he won.

The conviction was thrown out, and precedence regarding the admissibility of speed measurement evidence was established.
As I was posting, I actually had a few extra words in mind that I should have included in my post. Let me clarify:
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Originally Posted by Spats McGee
If that finder of fact determines that "Spats McGee drove at 70 mph on Roosevelt Road," that fact becomes true for legal purposes. It does not matter how it was proved, whether anybody clocked me with a radar gun, or anything else. It becomes, legally, a fact. Once the appeal has run its course, the matters that have been found as fact cannot be challenged further.
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Old September 1, 2017, 02:40 PM   #55
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The part people seem to be missing is that a violent attacker will have a lengthy record of criminal association and crime leading up to this. Armed robbery for example is not a crime one starts with. The BG in this case may be well known to the local police, may even be currently wanted.

The hard part to any of this is that it is largely dependent on where you are when this happens. I am retired from LE after having been a big city cop and then federal agent for 30 years and by choice I live in a relatively crime free conservative region of the county. If you live in New England or Cali, OR, Wa is it an ENTIRELY different world.

I believe that 19 states have some sort of qualified immunity to civil action after using force in Self Defense. My state has a great law in that respect. The reasoning here is that the state does not want its good citizens victimized by a criminal and then victimized all over again after the use of justified force during SD.
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Old September 1, 2017, 02:44 PM   #56
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All I'm saying is that a trial is more than that.
Oh absolutely. I am usually not overly verbose and try to keep my answers short and to the point. My point was that a trial is based upon PC, not to determine if there was PC.
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Old September 1, 2017, 02:44 PM   #57
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That depends on the investigation. If my estimate is 4 feet and it turns out 10 feet, is the discrepancy a material misrepresentation, an oversight, an error in judgement or a outright falsehood.
Doesn't matter. We are taking about the credibility of the defendant, whether he has misremembered or lied or unintentionally described something erroneously and subsequently changed his testimony.

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And then does it really have any bearing on the case.
That's almost the crux, but once the defendant's credibility has been impeached and found faulty, nothing he says can be relied upon.

It is why when conducting crime scene and accident investigations everything is measured and documented. Everything that can be measured

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My point is a simple mistake of fact, when it really does not change anything is irrelevant in the big picture.
Alrighty then.

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If you are suffering from the stress associated with a life or death situation it is absolutly relevant and well documented.
And that may be the reason for a material discrepancy in the testimony.

Or it may not.
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Old September 1, 2017, 02:48 PM   #58
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The part people seem to be missing is that a violent attacker will have a lengthy record of criminal association and crime leading up to this. Armed robbery for example is not a crime one starts with. The BG in this case may be well known to the local police, may even be currently wanted.
You are surely aware that, unless those facts were known to the defendant before the incident, they will not support a defense of justification.

There are a couple of exceptions in a couple of jurisdictions, but that's the general principle.
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Old September 1, 2017, 02:48 PM   #59
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Perhaps, but do you really want to count on discrepancies in your story to work in your favor in front of a jury?
No. Point being, you as the victim may not have had the information available to you that CSI's had. In police shootings very, very few officers can even accurately tell you how many shots they fired, does that bring their integrity into question or can that be explained by the normal physiology of stress?
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Old September 1, 2017, 02:49 PM   #60
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The part people seem to be missing is that a violent attacker will have a lengthy record of criminal association and crime leading up to this
So it is impossible to use an affirmative defense if the "victim" does not have a criminal record? More to the point, in a criminal trial, is a record that the defendant was not aware of ALWAYS admissible? I was led to believe years ago that it was generally not because the defendant's frame of mind could not be influenced by facts he or she did not know.

And really? Did you just assert, as a matter of fact, that no violent criminal attack has been carried out by someone without a criminal record?
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Old September 1, 2017, 02:56 PM   #61
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I believe that 19 states have some sort of qualified immunity to civil action after using force in Self Defense. My state has a great law in that respect. The reasoning here is that the state does not want its good citizens victimized by a criminal and then victimized all over again after the use of justified force during SD.
Here's something about what that means:


https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=529029
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Old September 1, 2017, 02:57 PM   #62
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You are surely aware that, unless those facts were known to the defendant before the incident, they will not support a defense of justification.
I never implied they would. The DA would certainly consider those facts on considering if he thought a crime had been committed by the victim in the first place. Anything you use as an affirmative defense is something you need to articulate ie; "He was charging me with a big knife shooting some religious expletive and I swear to God he had made it to within 4 feet of me before I could get my gun out and fire as I stepped behind a display counter."

In this situation does 4 feet or 10 feet change anything?
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Old September 1, 2017, 03:00 PM   #63
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In this situation does 4 feet or 10 feet change anything?
When a jury either watches me lie on the stand or hears that I lied to the investigators it in fact does influence things. There is a reason that lawyers BEG their clients not to make a statement without representation and that those statements are carefully considered before being made.

Are you really arguing that it does not?
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Old September 1, 2017, 03:02 PM   #64
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Your actions are argued and that's it. Someone will cite one or two cases but what I am saying is that it doesn't matter.
I agree Wild-Cat. Never heard of 'boutique' ammo being the reason someone was convicted. I doubt they will find a case anywhere to show that was the reason.

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Old September 1, 2017, 03:03 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Nanuk
. . . . I swear to God he had made it to within 4 feet of me before I could get my gun out and fire as I stepped behind a display counter."

In this situation does 4 feet or 10 feet change anything?
Does it change anything? That depends. Who do I represent?
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Old September 1, 2017, 03:30 PM   #66
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Never heard of 'boutique' ammo being the reason someone was convicted. I doubt they will find a case anywhere to show that was the reason.
I cannot imagine how it could ever be the reason.

I suppose that some ammunition and its packaging could perhaps combine with other things to tip the scales in a case in which the case for the defense was not convincing.

You won't find me carrying it--I like high quality stuff that has been tested to meet FBI standards, if I can get it.

Now, if I were in a position in which I had to carry a .32-20 or a .38 S&W for some reason, I might have to use an off brand.

Is there any such stuff out there that might pose a risk? I don't know, but I rend to doubt it.
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Old September 1, 2017, 03:31 PM   #67
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Not directly on the topic of this post - but if you are ever called up for jury duty, don't try to get out of it. Just do your civic duty and serve. It is VERY educational, especially to be involved in the discussions and dynamics that go on inside a the jury deliberation room, and how people can apply completely different weightings, pre-conceptions, and their own brand of "common sense" to the evidence presented.

It's a sobering experience, and will make you think several times about what is and is not important.

The old saying about better to be tried by 12, was from someone who was not tried by 12. I would try to avoid that as much as the part about being carried by 6.

To the original topic - I carry Buffalo Bore products in a couple of my self-defense firearms and don't worry about it. In one case, a .38, I carry the 158gr lead semi-wadcutter HP, which used to be called the "FBI round" because they still make it and nobody else seems to. In another, a .380, their hotter loads tend to improve the effectiveness of a marginal round. Still weaker than a 9mm by a fair margin.

So the argument would have to be along the lines of "so, you carried a "hot" cartridge to try to make your weak gun a little closer to being useful?" Yep.
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Old September 1, 2017, 03:32 PM   #68
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I never implied they would.
Then why bring it up?

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The DA would certainly consider those facts on considering if he thought a crime had been committed by the victim in the first place.
Keep in mind that the victim will not be the one on trial.
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Old September 1, 2017, 03:42 PM   #69
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So it is impossible to use an affirmative defense if the "victim" does not have a criminal record?
Was the "victim" a mutual combatant, initial aggressor, some actions preclude you from that. Someones record has no bearing on the current situation other than to indicate that a person with no past criminal association is very unlikely to try and rob a 3 time convicted felon.

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More to the point, in a criminal trial, is a record that the defendant was not aware of ALWAYS admissible?
Ohhh you used always...... Generally speaking, information unavailable at the time cannot be used to justify anything. Many times as an LEO I knew in advance who I was stopping.

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I was led to believe years ago that it was generally not because the defendant's frame of mind could not be influenced by facts he or she did not know.
Exactly
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And really? Did you just assert, as a matter of fact, that no violent criminal attack has been carried out by someone without a criminal record?
No, that would be pretty stupid. There are many ways someone can be made more prone to violence, emotion being the most common. However, as I stated, armed robbery is not a threshold crime. Nobody wakes up and says " I am gonna go rob 7-11 instead of going to work."
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Old September 1, 2017, 03:44 PM   #70
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The part people seem to be missing is that a violent attacker will have a lengthy record of criminal association and crime leading up to this.
I was questioning this statement. Is this statement true as it was made because there were no caveats with it?

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Armed robbery for example is not a crime one starts with
This is not a caveat. This is a premise made to support the above statement. Is this statement, by itself, true?

I think you are taking some broad generalizations and passing them off as truths. I'm not certain they are.
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Old September 1, 2017, 03:45 PM   #71
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Then why bring it up?
As part of a complete discussion and context. Besides I was responding to a question about affirmative defense.

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Keep in mind that the victim will not be the one on trial.
Harold Fish was.
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Old September 1, 2017, 03:47 PM   #72
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I was questioning this statement. Is this statement true as it was made because there were no caveats with it?
You left out the rest of the paragraph with gives it context.
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Old September 1, 2017, 03:52 PM   #73
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The part people seem to be missing is that a violent attacker will have a lengthy record of criminal association and crime leading up to this. Armed robbery for example is not a crime one starts with. The BG in this case may be well known to the local police, may even be currently wanted.
There is the rest of the paragraph. I see a statement there (the first sentence) followed by a supporting premise, followed by a theoretical possibility based on the first two sentences. What is the context that gives some caveat to the first sentence that I am missing? Did you simply mistype in leaving out some caveat or am I missing something?
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Old September 1, 2017, 04:09 PM   #74
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There is the rest of the paragraph. I see a statement there (the first sentence) followed by a supporting premise, followed by a theoretical possibility based on the first two sentences. What is the context that gives some caveat to the first sentence that I am missing? Did you simply mistype in leaving out some caveat or am I missing something?
Ok, lets play the game your way. In the example I have used what 2 times? You show me where a person without a criminal record committed an armed robbery. I am not talking about any crime of violence because that water is far too muddy since many people have been charged with crimes of violence for punching a wall or sofa during a domestic disturbance.
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Old September 1, 2017, 04:10 PM   #75
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I think this one's wandered too far afield already.
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