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Old July 23, 2017, 11:21 AM   #26
Tinbucket
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Do you think cases that large and with that much capacity would benefit from a tube from primer to front and 2 or three different powders for progressive burn?
I'm brain dead this morning and can't think of the term for this.
It should give nice increase in velocity and cooler longer barrel life.
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Old July 23, 2017, 01:36 PM   #27
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Elmer Keith experimented with tube primers and the results were good, but apparently not favorable enough to prompt any ammo company to pick the idea up and run with it.

Using two powders in a cartridge (usually with a faster burning powder over a slower burning powder) is called a duplex load. I suppose a triplex load would be the same thing with three powders.
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Old July 23, 2017, 02:33 PM   #28
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I messed with it in my Weaatherby .270. A lot of trouble but above 4400fps with 90 grain Speer which vaporized and the cases normal or redone only, three times to four times with annealing.
Military artillery rounds, some of them use or used this. Holes on the sides of tube also changed burning powder characteristics. Real slow powders , I think, necessary over .50 BMG could possible leave unburned powder from such massive charges, which that might solve, was my thought. I paid over 280.00 I think for 8lbs of powder for 223 CF I think. I can't imagine you cost for powder with near 300 grains loadings.
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Old July 24, 2017, 11:16 PM   #29
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Is anyone using a 20mm rifle for the competition?

It would definitely have the power to reach out that far and then some. There are a couple companies that are making them, any info?
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Old July 30, 2017, 07:32 PM   #30
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Would the total weight of a 20mm rifle be less than 50 lbs ?

Since that is mostly one of the requirement in ELR
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Old September 17, 2017, 10:18 AM   #31
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Never heard of one lighter...

Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed



Here is picture of 375 HE left, 416 HE next, 416 HSM right..



Here, tentative specs, 416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,



A 375 HE, with Lawton action, bunch being done with those .....

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Old October 9, 2017, 07:36 PM   #32
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Here is a 375 HE target gun set up, by Asteroid Precision...




Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr bullet about 3450-3475,

bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's just getting started

and is checking on better powder, Ed...........



https://www.facebook.com/AsteroidPrecisi..._location=group
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Old November 17, 2017, 02:29 AM   #33
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Here is recap simple setup to get faster loads with 12ga sabots & slugs, Example using break actions....,

reaming chamber in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5" 12ga reamer, that isn't something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or get 3.5" brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and our slower powder loads you can get a quarter more speed, which gives 50% more energy...


585 Hubel Express video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy load, gun little light.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyS9zZ8ElJA


Another view of Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,




Here is our 416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed

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Old November 23, 2017, 07:27 PM   #34
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Here in picture of the cases, are shown the steps in making

our 416 HSM case, from BMG brass,, Ed

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Old January 2, 2018, 10:21 AM   #35
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We might have a company that is doing a bolt gun with an action between BMG size and longer rifle actions used for 375 HE, 375 Lethal, and Cheytacs..

To use for our 416 HSM without having to do extreme rebating of the rim...Ed
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Old January 10, 2018, 12:33 AM   #36
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Here is picture of 620 hsm cases half done. Done on cnc ,

that slimmed them down, cut new rim and extractor groove.

There are over 500 more at cnc getting done now, plus we have

1000s more bmg cases we make them from when needed...Ed

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Old January 24, 2018, 12:45 AM   #37
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For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 is

easier to get powders to work with, with less problems ..

So if you got to buy new barrel, build a target gun,

don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....

We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...

CEB and others will have bullets...

CEB LAZER in .408Cal and .416Cal!

.408 in 425gr, 450gr and 475gr

.416 will be 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

They will be testing around mid-February..

My bigger diameter, 34" long 416 test barrel, was 250 bucks,

1-10 twist, 1- 5/8 inch diameter, work for bullets,

up to 425-450gr or so..;Ed..
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Old January 24, 2018, 12:39 PM   #38
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Who is offering uppers for that caliber??
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Old January 25, 2018, 05:12 AM   #39
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I don't know of any now, we are working with

a com to make bolt actions, that you'd put a

barrel in, and set in regular stock. Ed
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Old February 12, 2018, 05:25 AM   #40
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For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 easier to get powders to work with, less problems ..
Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....

Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..

I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is
no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.

And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually
hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..

And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have
15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..


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Old February 19, 2018, 11:08 PM   #41
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Here is a drawing depicting the layoutof thick and thin sided cases,

like my 585/375/416 HE thin sides ones and the thick one.

And my 585 case is not perfect, as where it transitions from the

heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there

shortening case life. There are others made that way including brand X.

The dotted line is what it should be. ..Ed

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Old February 20, 2018, 03:09 PM   #42
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Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides. Ed.
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Old March 4, 2018, 05:55 PM   #43
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Here is picture of six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE
and 6th is thick sided version. 1st 600 OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added



In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run.
Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE, but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness,
not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they last forever as 585s......

Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner
and sharp transition from the corner, tested 20 years ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads
as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will get 10 hot loads, and necked down to
416/375 4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent, factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.
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Old March 21, 2018, 10:01 PM   #44
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Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base diameter up from Nyati.He said,
'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the best I
could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck''

Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that trex/african case in 585
size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over 45k psi.

Another just sent us, thick sided 375, long case, same base OD as our 585 HE,
416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's 375 Lethal, and the thick ones stuck over 45k psi.

Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough powder so they won't
stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a little more
speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be 4- 4.5 inches long..

. Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the first of my 585s from,
contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what case side thickness should
be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM size case diameter.

Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and thick ones, both have
same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy angled corner, to the
side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with diamond wheel,
just by grinding off sharp transition corner. Then sides would be perfect.., .




Here is picture of 416 HE in a Choate target/varmint stock guy is doing,
using long action BSA U9 action.Setting in stock ready to do bedding..Ed

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Old April 4, 2018, 08:12 AM   #45
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Here is picture of thick 375 case sent to me, with thick sided trex case, and our HE case,
The thick 375 case is .050" bigger OD base, but inside is no bigger than HE cases..
These thick sided 375s stuck when loaded over 44,000 psi....



Got guys asking and I'm doing it, to do my 416 HSM case for BMG actions, so leaving rim same,
as the original bmg rim, so will neck them, fire form to the longer shoulder, like the others.
Base a little bigger, Shoulder same diameter, same 30 degree slant, neck will be same..

The inside of case still has close to same shape and volumne within 3 % as the ones we slimmed down.
Some want to use bmg actions and can't wait for intermediate actions, or already have bmg action.
And they are really getting interested in the complete line of 416 CEB bullets now being done..Ed
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Old April 20, 2018, 11:56 AM   #46
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Here is 416 HSM guy working in a Montana PH, in a heavy thumbhole target stock. Ed


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Old May 10, 2018, 01:55 AM   #47
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Here is sectioned 585 HE case in the middle, we first made from

another case, years ago before we had factory run of brass and

it had perfect thickness on the sides and inside corrner.

We could fire them many times without sides thinning..

First case is factory run of our 585 HE, 3rd is case that is too thick

of sides and sticks at high pressures..



Here is pic of our factory run cases necked down to 375 and fired 4 times

at high pressure on the right, with unfired case on the left. Our case is not

perfect but does work...Ed

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Old May 29, 2018, 08:00 AM   #48
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About 416 cal bullets............The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably be best 8 to 1 twist , in 416 caliber bullets,

and 500 gr 9 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Barrels I have 10 to 1.

Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small shallow hole drilled in base, might do better long range.which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize the heavier bullets for ELR.

Have hole maybe 2/3 size of tail end of boat tail...Some going to have to try it to see if it is accurate. Ed.
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Old July 9, 2018, 11:01 PM   #49
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About 416 cal bullets............

The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably be best 8 to 1 twist , in 416 caliber bullet,
and 520 gr 9.5 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Some barrels I picked up are 10 to 1.......

Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small shallow hole drilled in base, might do better
long range.which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize the heavier 550 gr bullets for ELR.
Making bullet nose heavier makes it more stable in flight, needing less spin,
like our hollow base 585 cal minie bullets only need 48 to 1 twist, or less
while out regular 585 bullets need about 24 to 1 to stabilise them..............

The winner of the King Of 2 Mile shoot last week was using 416 Barrett with a 1 to 10
twist, with a 500 gr CEB Lazer bullet, ...Robert Brantley, with Manners Stocks....

Paul Philips was third with a 416...

GOOD NEWS-- There is now an importer and seller of our 585 HE brass getting set up here,
in US, hopefully will be in stock, few weeks........ http://bertrambrass.com .. .. Caleb Hallet..

Have got another intermediate size action besides the Montana PH our guys working on,
to do speed testingwith. It is big long REM style action that can take our 416 HSM, ED
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Old July 24, 2018, 03:22 PM   #50
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Experimental intermediate size action with the Montana PH, for comparison.

It is an experimental action for our 416 HSM, to do our speed testing with

and get a better action than Cheytac size actions, for bigger case ELR use,

without going all way up to more expensive, huge actions.

It is big long round style action that can take our 416 HSM, almost

1.6" diameter and .800" bolt, with locking lugs nearly as big as most

BMG actions.... ED


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