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Old March 24, 2014, 03:05 PM   #1
jrinne0430
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Sheriff wants to conduct their own bankground check

I sent a copy of my C&R ffl renewal application (as per ATF requirements) to the sheriff's office. I received a call from them and they want my DOB so they can run their own background check

As far as I am concerned, I have fulfilled my requirements by sending them a copy of the C&R FFL. Has anyone run across this prior?
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Old March 24, 2014, 03:23 PM   #2
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If you've already bought guns in the past and had background checks done, what are your concerns? If you have a carry permit, same thing. If you presently don't have a cary permit and wish to get one in the future, or wish to renew, you're going to need his cooperation, right?
*shrugs* If any of the above applies, what's to lose?
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Old March 24, 2014, 03:30 PM   #3
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Sounds like a normal question to me, now if they wanted my SSN then I would question it a little.
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Old March 24, 2014, 04:03 PM   #4
jrinne0430
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Quote:
If you've already bought guns in the past and had background checks done, what are your concerns? If you have a carry permit, same thing. If you presently don't have a cary permit and wish to get one in the future, or wish to renew, you're going to need his cooperation, right?
*shrugs* If any of the above applies, what's to lose?
My concerns are why would they need one? The ATF runs my background when I apply/renew. Why submit to additional checks when they are not relevant? I also have a carry permit and unless I do something that prohibits me from having one,
Quote:
you're going to need his cooperation, right?
I will not need their cooperation. I, as the sheriff, needs only to follow the law. By the way, they do have my SS# as it is on my renewal form.

Has anyone run across this before?
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Old March 24, 2014, 04:15 PM   #5
Steve in PA
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Don't give him anything. You fulfilled the requirement of sending him the paper work you were supposed. All he is entitled to is the notification. If he does anything else, that's on him. But I would not give him any info beyond that which is required with the C & R License.
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Old March 24, 2014, 04:31 PM   #6
jrinne0430
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Don't give him anything. You fulfilled the requirement of sending him the paper work you were supposed. All he is entitled to is the notification. If he does anything else, that's on him. But I would not give him any info beyond that which is required with the C & R License.
This is what I planned but was wondering if anyone else has ever ran across this before. Though the sheriff is new (elected about 1yr ago), we have already run across behavior issues with his deputies. Unless it is required by law, which I cannot find anything that states that I must submit to the county's background check, I don't plan on providing the additional information. The sheriff does not approve or deny my C&R FFL.
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Old March 24, 2014, 04:33 PM   #7
49willys
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Seems I heard you can turn c and r papers into your local chief of police instead of the county sheriff.I just applied and haven`t heard back yet but it seems it said right on the application.
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Old March 24, 2014, 04:38 PM   #8
jrinne0430
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Seems I heard you can turn c and r papers into your local chief of police instead of the county sheriff.I just applied and haven`t heard back yet but it seems it said right on the application.
You submit a copy of the application and C&R FFL to the CLEO. Mine just happens to be the sheriff. I have not heard of a county required to run their own checks, and unless there is a law requiring it, I will not provide the additional information. I feel that unless there is a "specific" reason or requirement, then don't submit to unnecessary demands.
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Old March 24, 2014, 05:02 PM   #9
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Does the application require him to "sign off" on it or is it just a notification?

If you dont need his signature then dont bother with his background check. If on the other hand he has to sign any kind of approval for you to get your C & R... You might be stuck going along
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Old March 24, 2014, 05:04 PM   #10
jrinne0430
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No sign off required, just supply them with a copy. As you may sense, I feel any additional requirement a step toward infringement.
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Old March 24, 2014, 05:07 PM   #11
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Line 9 of the form includes your DOB. He can get it from there if he wants to fun his own background check.
You don't have to give him any further information. Unless there is a city, county, or state law requiring it.
Possibly it is just a formality he goes through, possibly his way of harassing C&R license holders.
One thing to think about though. The reason the BATF requires you to send a copy of your application to the CLEO is so he can contact them with his opposition to you having the license. So if you don't give him what he already has, will he take it one step further, and request the BATF deny your license.
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Old March 24, 2014, 05:27 PM   #12
jrinne0430
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On the renewal form (5310.11 and the certification of compliance form), there is no location for DOB.
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Old March 24, 2014, 06:05 PM   #13
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My bad, didn't even remember that even though I just filled mine out, and sent it in last week.

As you mentioned this is a newly elected sheriff. Possibly just his idea of doing his job. If so, your job is working to make him a one term sheriff.
Also, is it possible that it is a newly enacted local law. Did you ask when they called if it a requirement backed by law?
I guess you can just ignore them, and hope they just forget about it. Not contact the BATF informing them you are not cooperating with him causing the BATF to delay, or deny your license.
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Old March 24, 2014, 07:10 PM   #14
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i know nothing about any of this but it seems that if the sheriff wants the OP's DOB . . and it's not a requirement for him to run a background check (sorry, I'm somewhat of a "rebel") . . . I'm sure the OP probably has a Driver's License for the state he lives in? I mean, the Sheriff has the OP's name, his address, etc - how hard is it to "run" he OP and get the DOB?

This sounds like more of an "ego trip" for the Sheriff to make folks jump through hoops that aren't required. There are a lot of good LE officers out there . . . and there are some that shouldn't be . . just like any other profession. Just how many times is it necessary to run a person's background check if it's already been run for the C & R and the CCW?

Sometimes one term as Sheriff is enough . . . and I can't believe if he is doing this to folks who have followed all the rules that are required . . . that somewhere down the line he's going to do a "job" on the morale of those who have to work under him.
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Old March 24, 2014, 07:21 PM   #15
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isn't your DOB on your app in the first place?
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Old March 24, 2014, 10:58 PM   #16
chiefr
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Like most posters said, you send your CLEO a copy. The CLEO can be the city Chief of PD, or the Sheriff if you live in the county.

This is what an ATF agent explained to me:
If whoever the CLEO is, if they have a problem with you having a FFL, the CLEO needs to notify the ATF. IE: If the applicant is under investigation l
locally or some other state/local issue unbeknown to the Feds or ATF.

Otherwise the ATF will give you the license.
At every renewal from your initial license, you will have to send a copy of your renewal to the CLEO. I always attach a cover letter.
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Old March 25, 2014, 04:53 AM   #17
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I am a professor of Human Resource Management

Asking a person for their DOB exposes the requester to charges of discrimination under ADEA of 67.

I know this is not an employment situation but even so, if a grievant can convince the EEOC that he or she was discriminated against because of age, it makes the requesters day quite busy providing proof there was no discrimination. The EEOC office's decision to take the case has a lot to do with how busy they are.

Persons who need age information are far better advised to ask if the applicant meets age requirements rather than asking the persons age.

As an example, I worked for a construction company in a position in which I hired CDL truck drivers. There was a chance that the drivers might need to cross state lines. The DOT required that all CDL drivers crossing state lines had to be at least 21 years of age. This means that the driver was statutorially required to be 21 years of age. That fact made it a BFOQ that CDL drivers had to be 21. But instead of asking for their date of birth, I told them that drivers had to be 21 and merely asked them if they met that criterion.

Getting a background check is not something that is protected by ADEA 67. SO EEOC would not likely move against the Sheriff for asking. But in making that determination, the EEOC goes to the alleged aggrieving organization and ruins their day with documentation requests. I handled four cases while I was employed at the construction company. Every one of them went no further than the investigation stage. And every one of them occupied hundreds of man hours providing documentation proving the complaint was unfounded.

In order to remain on good terms with the Sheriff, I would provide the information they request.

My point is they are not in a strong position in asking the question unless (as has been said before) there is some statute over which the Sheriff has jurisdiction which requires it.
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Last edited by Doc Hoy; March 25, 2014 at 05:18 AM.
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Old March 25, 2014, 07:22 AM   #18
jrinne0430
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Quote:
This is what an ATF agent explained to me:
If whoever the CLEO is, if they have a problem with you having a FFL, the CLEO needs to notify the ATF. IE: If the applicant is under investigation l
locally or some other state/local issue unbeknown to the Feds or ATF.
I never spoke with the shreiff's office, they just left me a phone message. In the message, I was informed that they (the sheriffs office) wants my DOB so they can run their own background check on me. The ATF will be performing this check when they received my application. Unless there is a requirement for this (and after reading VA Code 18.2-308.2:2 it does not appear so), then this is a type of harrassment, infringement, etc that the dept is tyring to implement, regardless if it is done by ignorance to the law or willfully. I will try to get some clarity from the AG's office and progun law firm on this matter.
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Old March 25, 2014, 08:19 AM   #19
Mike Irwin
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Reach out to the Virginia Citizen's Defense League.

VCDL.org.

See what they have to say.

Which county?
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Old March 25, 2014, 08:33 AM   #20
jrinne0430
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Stafford
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Old March 25, 2014, 08:42 AM   #21
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Sorry, but it's hard for me to understand what is the big deal here. I've called law enforcement to report things before and they ask for my name and DOB. If you go to a doctor they identify you by asking for your DOB. People are required to give it out on a regular basis for all kinds of stuff and I just can't see the big deal of giving it to the sheriff so they have a positive I.D. on you.
You might get some legal bunch to scream and yell about it, but in the end, you won't accomplish anything.
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Old March 25, 2014, 10:10 AM   #22
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Actually, quite a bit can be accomplished.

Virginians have for many years been fighting hard against some really onerous and completely unreasonable overreaches by local law enforcement when it comes to the exercise of firearms rights.

Prior to 1994 Virginia had a conditional issue CCW system. If you lived in Northern Virginia, pretty much the only way you could get such a permit from from the local sheriff was if you wrote a large enough check to his re-election campaign.

When shall issue was put into place, there was an extremely long and protracted fight with local sheriffs and police in many areas who did everthing they could to drag out the issuance process, threw up unreasonable (and extralegal) hurdles, fees, etc.

In the early days some sheriffs even said, flat out, that they would under no circumstances issue permits. They were either sued into submission, or replaced.

The Legislature had to, several times, pass amendments further defining the law and what local law enforcement could do via the permit process.

I don't blame jrinne0430 in the least for being suspicious. I am not, under any circumstances, willing to give local, state, or federal law enforcement more powers than are enumerated in law.

That said, I can find nothing that either authorizes or forbids local law enforcement from conducting a background check.

The way I read the Federal law, notification of local law enforcement is required, but local law enforcement (LLE) is not required to do anything with the notification.

In other words, if YOU don't notify the LLE, your license can be denied, but when you do notify LLE, there is apparently nothing in the regs that either deny them or specifically give them authority to do the background check.

I find that to be a bit troubling, and that's why I say contact VCDL.
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Old March 25, 2014, 10:17 AM   #23
jrinne0430
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Sorry, but it's hard for me to understand what is the big deal here. I've called law enforcement to report things before and they ask for my name and DOB. If you go to a doctor they identify you by asking for your DOB. People are required to give it out on a regular basis for all kinds of stuff and I just can't see the big deal of giving it to the sheriff so they have a positive I.D. on you.
You might get some legal bunch to scream and yell about it, but in the end, you won't accomplish anything.
See, this is the problem. If a bit of additional information or a procedure is not required, then why subject yourself to it? I know we have to provide information about ourselves on a daily basis however; if someone or an entity decides they want more than what is required and you compitulate, then they may later start asking for some more, create a hoop or two for you to jump through, etc. Next thing you know, you are neck deep in procedural BS...and if you later refuse, then what?
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Old March 25, 2014, 10:25 AM   #24
jrinne0430
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I find that to be a bit troubling, and that's why I say contact VCDL.
I contacted them and waiting on a response.
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Old March 25, 2014, 12:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Though the sheriff is new (elected about 1yr ago)
jrinne0430 I live in Stafford too. My interest in now peaked! I've had my C&R license here for quite a while now. By the way, the Sheriff isn't new. He has been sheriff since 2000 (he may have been re-elected about a year ago). I got my original C&R license with him being sheriff, and several renewals. Never even heard from him.

Quote:
we have already run across behavior issues with his deputies.
Who is "we"? I haven't heard of any issues with his deputies. If you've had personal issues with his deputies, then perhaps that is the root of the issue you are having with them now. Not saying that is right or justified, just sayin'...
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