Recent Enfield #4 imports into the US?

Ignition Override · February 22, 2011, 12:21 AM

Just idle curiosity, as some Enfield #4/Mk1s were listed recently at Classic Arms (the ad is gone) and now at JGSales. Their condition is generally good, but "Expect a dark bore".

I've already bought three #4s, but were these rifles at US distributors imported not long ago, and if so, are they from Canada, or much more distant countries?

They must be scarce, or are not allowed to be exported from many foreign countries.
They were being destroyed in gun shops in South Africa months ago.
A guy at "Gunboards" has a friend there who walked into a shop and witnessed Enfields (and Brens) being destroyed. He was shocked at the senseless waste.

There are British/Euro "arms control" groups who use citizens' tax money to pay numerous countries to destroy both fully auto (AK etc) and even old bolt-action WW2-era rifles.

carguychris · February 22, 2011, 09:53 AM

I purchased one of these guns last year and subsequently traded it for an FN Browning 1922 pistol. It's my understanding that most, if not all, of these guns are British-made MkI's with the non-adjustable 300m/600m Mk2 flip sight. Most have mismatched bolts and other parts, and have had the receiver markings scrubbed. I purchased mine from Classic, and they told me that as far as they could tell, all of the No4s they received were like this.

The story on other forums is that these guns were in UK or Australian reserve arsenals and were given to the Thai government as a political concession during the Vietnam conflict. The receiver markings were removed to disguise their provenance.

My gun had serious rust on the underside of the front barrel band- bad enough that I chose to replace it- and had some rust spots on the barrel under the handguard, and inside the magazine. That said, despite being dark as advertised, the bore had crisp lands and grooves. Overall, it was a serviceable rifle, albeit an ugly one.

Judging by its condition, I believe that the rifle was probably stored under less-than-ideal conditions, but was shot little if at all.

FWIW I've read elsewhere that Canada is no longer exporting surplus military or police guns as a matter of policy. OTOH I've also read that Canada generally has very few L-Es remaining in their inventory, and is trying to hang on to them because they don't want to spend money to replace them.

Ignition Override · February 24, 2011, 02:32 AM

Thanks very much.

You are the first person on several websites who knows anything about such recent US milsurp imports.

Maybe it's the last batch of Enfields to enter. My interest in guns took many years to blossom

, and missed the better times just several years ago.
At least guns shows outside the Memphis area usually have a decent #4.

I almost kick myself when I read what rifles and ammo (i.e. .303, .308 and x39) cost in the early 90s or earlier, despite higher-value dollars.

Tikirocker · February 24, 2011, 08:30 AM

Quote:

The story on other forums is that these guns were in UK or Australian reserve arsenals

Certainly not Australian ... we never used the No4 as we manufactured our own version of the No1 MkIII right up until the 1950's - any reserves we had were the No1 and the reserve of these were sold off to Jovino in the late 80's,.

Tiki.

madcratebuilder · February 24, 2011, 08:43 AM

A large number of No4's came into the USA from Greece a few years ago and have been filtering into the surplus market. Many have been setting in USA warehouses for years. Many have come from pacific rim countries.

I don't deal with JG and Classic for No4's. I prefer to find rifles that came into the USA before 1968 and do not have a import marking on them. That's not always possible with some variations like the MKII PF and UF series.

madmo44mag · February 24, 2011, 08:56 AM

I recently bought another L/E from J&G and was greatly surprised to get one with a very nice bore, two very minor stock repairs and 95% blue remaining.
It was made by the BSA Co. (Birmingham Small Arms Company) and date of manufacturer was 1943.
It was a bolt forced rifle but many mil-surp rifle are this way due to the way they are armorer reconditioned.
It shoots great at 50 yards.
I have not had a chance to shoot it out past 50 yards yet but based on the grouping at 50 yds it should be a very nice shooter.

wogpotter · February 24, 2011, 09:19 AM

Quote:

It was a bolt forced rifle but many mil-surp rifle are this way due to the way they are armorer reconditioned.

What is bolt forced?

Tikirocker · February 24, 2011, 09:39 AM

Quote:

What is bolt forced?

Exactly ....

madmo44mag · February 24, 2011, 09:48 AM

"Bolt Forced"

Non matching bolt.
A bolt that was not originally head spaced for that particular rifle.
Serial numbers do not match.

Not all but most service armored guns come in and are stripped and the parts thrown in a pile.
They mix and match parts upon reassembly.

I may be showing my age with that term - LOL!!!!

madcratebuilder · February 25, 2011, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmo44mag

I may be showing my age with that term - LOL!!!!

You are, and I am to by knowing what you said!

Tikirocker · February 25, 2011, 10:43 AM

I don't think it's an age thing but rather a geographical/cultural thing ... none of the old timers I know in my part of the world use the term "force matched". The term used here is non-matching, that's all.

Tiki.

wogpotter · February 25, 2011, 02:39 PM

Quote:

The term used here is non-matching,

Same here & my Enfield is younger than I am

madmo44mag · February 25, 2011, 03:31 PM

Force matched - Forced bolt are the only terms I have ever heard when a bolt did not match the rifle / receiver.
Very interesting - Well we learn something new everyday.

I love mil-surp rifles.
I have some that look almost new and others you can see the battle scares on.
One of my E/F has no blue left on the bayonet lugs. Nicks and scratches all over the receiver and a dinged up stock.
I know it saw serious battle at some point in it's life.
Even with all it's wear and tear, it shoots as good today as most brand new modern rifles.

Ignition Override · February 28, 2011, 12:07 AM

madmo44mag:
I visited your Ft. Worth gun show Jan. 1st.

Such a pleasant surprise after the severe scarcity of non-sporter. Enfield #4s etc at shows near Memphis!

Your show had five original Enfield #4s on Saturday, then suddenly only four

.

Despite peoples' ravings about Dallas and the large Tulsa show, the best for milsurps is reported to be in Louisville KY.
While at the Franklin TN show a few weeks ago, a guy stated that you might find one hundred and fifty Enfields at Louisville.

February 22, 2011, 12:21 AM	#1
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,884	Recent Enfield #4 imports into the US? Just idle curiosity, as some Enfield #4/Mk1s were listed recently at Classic Arms (the ad is gone) and now at JGSales. Their condition is generally good, but "Expect a dark bore". I've already bought three #4s, but were these rifles at US distributors imported not long ago, and if so, are they from Canada, or much more distant countries? They must be scarce, or are not allowed to be exported from many foreign countries. They were being destroyed in gun shops in South Africa months ago. A guy at "Gunboards" has a friend there who walked into a shop and witnessed Enfields (and Brens) being destroyed. He was shocked at the senseless waste. There are British/Euro "arms control" groups who use citizens' tax money to pay numerous countries to destroy both fully auto (AK etc) and even old bolt-action WW2-era rifles.

February 22, 2011, 09:53 AM	#2
carguychris Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 7,523	I purchased one of these guns last year and subsequently traded it for an FN Browning 1922 pistol. It's my understanding that most, if not all, of these guns are British-made MkI's with the non-adjustable 300m/600m Mk2 flip sight. Most have mismatched bolts and other parts, and have had the receiver markings scrubbed. I purchased mine from Classic, and they told me that as far as they could tell, all of the No4s they received were like this. The story on other forums is that these guns were in UK or Australian reserve arsenals and were given to the Thai government as a political concession during the Vietnam conflict. The receiver markings were removed to disguise their provenance. My gun had serious rust on the underside of the front barrel band- bad enough that I chose to replace it- and had some rust spots on the barrel under the handguard, and inside the magazine. That said, despite being dark as advertised, the bore had crisp lands and grooves. Overall, it was a serviceable rifle, albeit an ugly one. Judging by its condition, I believe that the rifle was probably stored under less-than-ideal conditions, but was shot little if at all. FWIW I've read elsewhere that Canada is no longer exporting surplus military or police guns as a matter of policy. OTOH I've also read that Canada generally has very few L-Es remaining in their inventory, and is trying to hang on to them because they don't want to spend money to replace them. __________________ "Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak

February 24, 2011, 02:32 AM	#3
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,884	Thanks very much. You are the first person on several websites who knows anything about such recent US milsurp imports. Maybe it's the last batch of Enfields to enter. My interest in guns took many years to blossom, and missed the better times just several years ago. At least guns shows outside the Memphis area usually have a decent #4. I almost kick myself when I read what rifles and ammo (i.e. .303, .308 and x39) cost in the early 90s or earlier, despite higher-value dollars.

February 24, 2011, 08:56 AM	#6
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	I recently bought another L/E from J&G and was greatly surprised to get one with a very nice bore, two very minor stock repairs and 95% blue remaining. It was made by the BSA Co. (Birmingham Small Arms Company) and date of manufacturer was 1943. It was a bolt forced rifle but many mil-surp rifle are this way due to the way they are armorer reconditioned. It shoots great at 50 yards. I have not had a chance to shoot it out past 50 yards yet but based on the grouping at 50 yds it should be a very nice shooter. __________________ Texas - Not just a state but an attitude! For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW

February 24, 2011, 09:48 AM	#9
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	"Bolt Forced" Non matching bolt. A bolt that was not originally head spaced for that particular rifle. Serial numbers do not match. Not all but most service armored guns come in and are stripped and the parts thrown in a pile. They mix and match parts upon reassembly. I may be showing my age with that term - LOL!!!! __________________ Texas - Not just a state but an attitude! For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW

February 24, 2011, 08:43 AM	#5
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	A large number of No4's came into the USA from Greece a few years ago and have been filtering into the surplus market. Many have been setting in USA warehouses for years. Many have come from pacific rim countries. I don't deal with JG and Classic for No4's. I prefer to find rifles that came into the USA before 1968 and do not have a import marking on them. That's not always possible with some variations like the MKII PF and UF series.

February 25, 2011, 10:43 AM	#11
Tikirocker Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2007 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 909	I don't think it's an age thing but rather a geographical/cultural thing ... none of the old timers I know in my part of the world use the term "force matched". The term used here is non-matching, that's all. Tiki. __________________ The Lee Enfield forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27 Surplus Rifle Forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/index.php

February 25, 2011, 03:31 PM	#13
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	Force matched - Forced bolt are the only terms I have ever heard when a bolt did not match the rifle / receiver. Very interesting - Well we learn something new everyday. I love mil-surp rifles. I have some that look almost new and others you can see the battle scares on. One of my E/F has no blue left on the bayonet lugs. Nicks and scratches all over the receiver and a dinged up stock. I know it saw serious battle at some point in it's life. Even with all it's wear and tear, it shoots as good today as most brand new modern rifles. __________________ Texas - Not just a state but an attitude! For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW

February 28, 2011, 12:07 AM	#14
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,884	madmo44mag: I visited your Ft. Worth gun show Jan. 1st. Such a pleasant surprise after the severe scarcity of non-sporter. Enfield #4s etc at shows near Memphis! Your show had five original Enfield #4s on Saturday, then suddenly only four. Despite peoples' ravings about Dallas and the large Tulsa show, the best for milsurps is reported to be in Louisville KY. While at the Franklin TN show a few weeks ago, a guy stated that you might find one hundred and fifty Enfields at Louisville.